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NSA Spied on Denmark as It Chose Its Future Fighter Aircraft: Report

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Re: NSA Spied on Denmark as It Chose Its Future Fighter Aircraft: Report

#121

Post by thefounder »

coldtea wrote: post #105
thefounder wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> motivated by standing up against the US and their illegal activities. They know they can't do much to stand up against US. I may be wrong but I think Denmark's security is based on US millitary support through NATO. This applies to most EU countries. Russia is too threatening to upset your security guarantor. Here you have it, it's no secret: Denmark opposes the creation of a "European army" to defend the E.U. fro…

> They know they can't do much to stand up against US. I may be wrong but I think Denmark's security is based on US millitary support through NATO. This applies to most EU countries. Russia is too threatening to upset your security guarantor. It's amazing how this Cold War old-wives-tale is still what Americans believe... Russia is not USSR - a superpower with half of Europe under its wings -, and is not a threat to…

Well Russia already anexed Crimea and is fighting a proxy war in Ukraine. You may not find Ukraine enough European for you to count. Next: other Eastern European countries. Next: the baltic countries.

Re: NSA Spied on Denmark as It Chose Its Future Fighter Aircraft: Report

#122

Post by cstpdk »

bigbubba wrote: post #68
fulafel wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The article lays out the expectations (and law) of the Danes re hosting the NSA espionage center and ground rules about its non-use against Danish interests, which sound pretty modest.

For the Danes to trust spies requires willful naïveté, no? I wouldn't be surprised to hear key Danish politicians got bribed or blackmailed into being so credulous in the first place.

They are neither bribed or blackmailed, every danish government for the past 20 years have been informed about this agreement and has complied. It's absolutely a crime against the population (since innocent Danes are also being spied on). The reason the politicians are complying is that we are reliant on US for military support through Nato (which I guess you can call a bribe, of sorts)

Re: NSA Spied on Denmark as It Chose Its Future Fighter Aircraft: Report

#123

Post by throwaway56034 »

rich_sasha wrote: post #120
coldtea wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They know they can't do much to stand up against US. I may be wrong but I think Denmark's security is based on US millitary support through NATO. This applies to most EU countries. Russia is too threatening to upset your security guarantor. It's amazing how this Cold War old-wives-tale is still what Americans believe... Russia is not USSR - a superpower with half of Europe under its wings -, and is not a threat to…

> Russia is not USSR - a superpower with half of Europe under its wings -, and is not a threat to anyone Not by choice, Russians still think the collapse of USSR a tragic mistake, and Putin’s rhetoric ties directly back to it. Russian “defence” spending is skyrocketing, Russia is holding frequent manoeuvres righ in NATO borders, keeps flying bombers ever-so-slightly into NATO country airspace’s... and most of all, Ru…

Russian “defence” spending is skyrocketing,

This is wrong, it barely keeps up with inflation: https://www.sipri.org/commentary/topical-backgrounder/2020/r...

This is a whopping 9% of the yearly defense spending of the US.

Re: NSA Spied on Denmark as It Chose Its Future Fighter Aircraft: Report

#124

Post by ignasl »

jmnicolas wrote: post #97
thefounder wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> motivated by standing up against the US and their illegal activities. They know they can't do much to stand up against US. I may be wrong but I think Denmark's security is based on US millitary support through NATO. This applies to most EU countries. Russia is too threatening to upset your security guarantor. Here you have it, it's no secret: Denmark opposes the creation of a "European army" to defend the E.U. fro…

> Russia is too threatening to upset your security guarantor. Come on stop spreading this dumb western propaganda, Russia isn't threatening anybody in western Europe. They took Crimea back and sabotaged Ukraine because strategically they can't afford to have yet another NATO country right at their doorstep. They're not going to invade Poland any time soon (what for anyway?). They're not crazy nor blood thirsty. This…

They won't invade Poland or Baltics because those countries are in NATO and EU and it's way too risky. Russia seems pretty involved in all the hotspots lately including starting a war in Ukraine. Very likely same fate would be for Poland and Baltics if they didn't protect themselves with stronger allies. And even if current Russia is not interested/capable to cause trouble to east EU - that doesn't mean it won't change in the future. Country leader shouldn't just look in the last 2 years - he needs to prepare country for the next 50 years.

Re: NSA Spied on Denmark as It Chose Its Future Fighter Aircraft: Report

#125

Post by goatinaboat »

throwaway4good wrote: post #118
coldtea wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They know they can't do much to stand up against US. I may be wrong but I think Denmark's security is based on US millitary support through NATO. This applies to most EU countries. Russia is too threatening to upset your security guarantor. It's amazing how this Cold War old-wives-tale is still what Americans believe... Russia is not USSR - a superpower with half of Europe under its wings -, and is not a threat to…

Agreed. France alone probably has sufficient military power to balance Russia. European countries can stand up to what is obviously unacceptable (industrial espionage conducted by US military intelligence). But Denmark in the later years have chosen not to.

France alone probably has sufficient military power to balance Russia.

It depends on the theatre. At sea, probably, in a nuclear exchange France has sufficient deterrent capability. But in a land war, tank on tank the way God meant it to be, France’s 200 tanks are no match for Russia’s thousands.

Remember purchasing power parity. Russia may be poorer than France, but it’s stuff costs a lot less too.

Re: NSA Spied on Denmark as It Chose Its Future Fighter Aircraft: Report

#126

Post by ochrist »

guest3456789 wrote: post #107
msh wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am also danish, I would guess a large part is that we have no alternative to the US as a defence partner. If for example russia wanted greenland, I dont feel confident that any other of our allies would put soldiers on the ground to defend it.

Not trying to being sceptic here, but before and after seeing the latest Greenland movie, I think USA owns already Greenland de facto for all practical purposes. Denmark just has it on paper and pays the costs. If Russia wanted to take Greenland (why?), then USA will fight of course because it is already theirs.

I don't agree with this, and neither does the Greenland Home Rule: https://naalakkersuisut.gl/en USA has a base to the very north east of Greenland (Thule Air Base), but most of the workforce there is people from Denmark and Greenland. They used to have other bases (e.g. Sonderstrom), but are currently primarily based on Thule. However, after the POTUS offer on buying Greenland, USA is now (re)opening a consulate there. Source: I'm Danish and have worked at Thule Air Base several years ago.

Re: NSA Spied on Denmark as It Chose Its Future Fighter Aircraft: Report

#127

Post by [deleted] »

msh wrote: post #95
sbierwagen wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For context, Denmark has a population of 5.8 million. It’s as if Wisconsin had an air force.

But it have the territory almost 23% of the size of the USA to defend (greenland is part of denmark for defence purposes).

[deleted]

Re: NSA Spied on Denmark as It Chose Its Future Fighter Aircraft: Report

#128

Post by fakedang »

zaphirplane wrote: post #119
jmnicolas wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Russia is too threatening to upset your security guarantor. Come on stop spreading this dumb western propaganda, Russia isn't threatening anybody in western Europe. They took Crimea back and sabotaged Ukraine because strategically they can't afford to have yet another NATO country right at their doorstep. They're not going to invade Poland any time soon (what for anyway?). They're not crazy nor blood thirsty. This…

I thought it was about getting land locked not so much having a NATO country on it border

Warm water port + not wanting a NATO country within driving distance of Moscow. Same reason why Russia is heavily invested in maintaining its hegemony over Belarus.

Re: NSA Spied on Denmark as It Chose Its Future Fighter Aircraft: Report

#129

Post by mola »

thefounder wrote: post #115
cturner wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find the idea of a European army to be the stuff of fantasy. The reason Europe is so dependent on the US is because European NATO members have for decades chosen not to honour their spending and capability obligations to that treaty. Certainly this includes Denmark. A quick google suggests this rich nation is spending 1.3% instead of the 2% minimum. Meanwhile, Russia, a less prosperous nation with a history of musc…

>> I find the idea of a European army to be the stuff of fantasy. You are not alone. That's why some EU countries prefer to buy US millitary equipment(often at inflated prices), support US's interests in the region and beyond(i.e Iraq invasion), accept US's interferences and be done with it. The EU army project is too risky politically and strategically. Things may change if US becomes too erratic(i.e think of a supe…

Well, reality is not static, what's laughable today may be very reasonable tomorrow. EU generally would like to play ball with the US as long as the relationship is palatable predictable stable and generally cooperative. But a strong EU and an unpredictable, bullish and erratic behaviour by certain US presidents, might change this.

Re: NSA Spied on Denmark as It Chose Its Future Fighter Aircraft: Report

#130

Post by morsch »

mschuster91 wrote: post #112
jmnicolas wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Russia is too threatening to upset your security guarantor. Come on stop spreading this dumb western propaganda, Russia isn't threatening anybody in western Europe. They took Crimea back and sabotaged Ukraine because strategically they can't afford to have yet another NATO country right at their doorstep. They're not going to invade Poland any time soon (what for anyway?). They're not crazy nor blood thirsty. This…

They have literally been caught financing Brexit and every major alt-right, antidemocratic, Europe-skeptic party there is - Germany's AfD, France's FN, Italy's Salvini bunch. Russia is a threat to democracy and an enemy of Europe, directly competing with China.

Well yeah, but the thread so far was referring to military threats.
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