NSA Spied on Denmark as It Chose Its Future Fighter Aircraft: Report • Hacker News Board

Re: NSA Spied on Denmark as It Chose Its Future Fighter Aircraft: Report

#111

Post by jmnicolas » Thu, Nov 19, 2020, 8:02 AM UTC

roenxi wrote: post #101

jmnicolas wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Russia is too threatening to upset your security guarantor. Come on stop spreading this dumb western propaganda, Russia isn't threatening anybody in western Europe. They took Crimea back and sabotaged Ukraine because strategically they can't afford to have yet another NATO country right at their doorstep. They're not going to invade Poland any time soon (what for anyway?). They're not crazy nor blood thirsty. This…

If you look past the propaganda, basically there are a bunch of countries in the world. One would assume that Russia/North Korea/China/the UK/Kazakhstan/Somalia etc want to invade other places about as much as America does. So if you look at America's record for foreign 'Peacekeeping' it seems prudent to keep a sizeable army on hand to defend against the Russians. Places with strong armies invade places that aren't p…

Of course you need a strong army to protect your country so that your neighbors don't become hungry for what you have.

However I resent the dumb propaganda that is served to us and has no basis in reality.

Re: NSA Spied on Denmark as It Chose Its Future Fighter Aircraft: Report

#112

Post by mschuster91 » Thu, Nov 19, 2020, 8:04 AM UTC

jmnicolas wrote: post #97

thefounder wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> motivated by standing up against the US and their illegal activities. They know they can't do much to stand up against US. I may be wrong but I think Denmark's security is based on US millitary support through NATO. This applies to most EU countries. Russia is too threatening to upset your security guarantor. Here you have it, it's no secret: Denmark opposes the creation of a "European army" to defend the E.U. fro…

> Russia is too threatening to upset your security guarantor. Come on stop spreading this dumb western propaganda, Russia isn't threatening anybody in western Europe. They took Crimea back and sabotaged Ukraine because strategically they can't afford to have yet another NATO country right at their doorstep. They're not going to invade Poland any time soon (what for anyway?). They're not crazy nor blood thirsty. This…

They have literally been caught financing Brexit and every major alt-right, antidemocratic, Europe-skeptic party there is - Germany's AfD, France's FN, Italy's Salvini bunch.

Russia is a threat to democracy and an enemy of Europe, directly competing with China.

Re: NSA Spied on Denmark as It Chose Its Future Fighter Aircraft: Report

#113

Post by _lbaq » Thu, Nov 19, 2020, 8:06 AM UTC

cturner wrote: post #103

thefounder wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> motivated by standing up against the US and their illegal activities. They know they can't do much to stand up against US. I may be wrong but I think Denmark's security is based on US millitary support through NATO. This applies to most EU countries. Russia is too threatening to upset your security guarantor. Here you have it, it's no secret: Denmark opposes the creation of a "European army" to defend the E.U. fro…

I find the idea of a European army to be the stuff of fantasy. The reason Europe is so dependent on the US is because European NATO members have for decades chosen not to honour their spending and capability obligations to that treaty. Certainly this includes Denmark. A quick google suggests this rich nation is spending 1.3% instead of the 2% minimum. Meanwhile, Russia, a less prosperous nation with a history of musc…

>Meanwhile, Russia, a developing nation with a history of muscular military engagements in the region, is spending more than six percent of its much larger GDB on military.

The Russia GDP is less than 10% of the GDP of EU, or the same size as the Benelux (Belgium, the Netherlands and Luxembourg) countries.

Its population is shrinking rapidly due to low birth rates and very high death rates.

Its ruled by a totalitarian dictator that regularly tries to murder his opponents.

It seeks by all means to stir up unrest in its surroundings by misinformation.

Its one of the most corrupt countries in the world.

All of these are good reasons why the EU should rapidly invest in its own defense force. Putin will step-down one way or another the next 20 years and then it may get ugly, nobody knows who are waiting in the wings...

Re: NSA Spied on Denmark as It Chose Its Future Fighter Aircraft: Report

#114

Post by jabl » Thu, Nov 19, 2020, 8:08 AM UTC

cturner wrote: post #103

thefounder wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> motivated by standing up against the US and their illegal activities. They know they can't do much to stand up against US. I may be wrong but I think Denmark's security is based on US millitary support through NATO. This applies to most EU countries. Russia is too threatening to upset your security guarantor. Here you have it, it's no secret: Denmark opposes the creation of a "European army" to defend the E.U. fro…

I find the idea of a European army to be the stuff of fantasy. The reason Europe is so dependent on the US is because European NATO members have for decades chosen not to honour their spending and capability obligations to that treaty. Certainly this includes Denmark. A quick google suggests this rich nation is spending 1.3% instead of the 2% minimum. Meanwhile, Russia, a less prosperous nation with a history of musc…

> Meanwhile, Russia, a developing nation with a history of muscular military engagements in the region, is spending more than six percent of its much larger GDB on military.

Economically, Russia is a midget compared to the EU. They do have lots of nukes, though.

Re: NSA Spied on Denmark as It Chose Its Future Fighter Aircraft: Report

#115

Post by thefounder » Thu, Nov 19, 2020, 8:11 AM UTC

cturner wrote: post #103

thefounder wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> motivated by standing up against the US and their illegal activities. They know they can't do much to stand up against US. I may be wrong but I think Denmark's security is based on US millitary support through NATO. This applies to most EU countries. Russia is too threatening to upset your security guarantor. Here you have it, it's no secret: Denmark opposes the creation of a "European army" to defend the E.U. fro…

I find the idea of a European army to be the stuff of fantasy. The reason Europe is so dependent on the US is because European NATO members have for decades chosen not to honour their spending and capability obligations to that treaty. Certainly this includes Denmark. A quick google suggests this rich nation is spending 1.3% instead of the 2% minimum. Meanwhile, Russia, a less prosperous nation with a history of musc…

>> I find the idea of a European army to be the stuff of fantasy.

You are not alone. That's why some EU countries prefer to buy US millitary equipment(often at inflated prices), support US's interests in the region and beyond(i.e Iraq invasion), accept US's interferences and be done with it. The EU army project is too risky politically and strategically. Things may change if US becomes too erratic(i.e think of a super Trump presidency)

Re: NSA Spied on Denmark as It Chose Its Future Fighter Aircraft: Report

#116

Post by elevenoh » Thu, Nov 19, 2020, 8:15 AM UTC

coldtea wrote: post #105

thefounder wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> motivated by standing up against the US and their illegal activities. They know they can't do much to stand up against US. I may be wrong but I think Denmark's security is based on US millitary support through NATO. This applies to most EU countries. Russia is too threatening to upset your security guarantor. Here you have it, it's no secret: Denmark opposes the creation of a "European army" to defend the E.U. fro…

> They know they can't do much to stand up against US. I may be wrong but I think Denmark's security is based on US millitary support through NATO. This applies to most EU countries. Russia is too threatening to upset your security guarantor. It's amazing how this Cold War old-wives-tale is still what Americans believe... Russia is not USSR - a superpower with half of Europe under its wings -, and is not a threat to…

"Russia is not USSR - a superpower with half of Europe under its wings -, and is not a threat to anyone"

Haven't we entered an age where 'non-eyeToEye-threats' can do enormous damage, even if by error (e.g. nuclear bombing the US)?

Re: NSA Spied on Denmark as It Chose Its Future Fighter Aircraft: Report

#117

Post by _RPL5_ » Thu, Nov 19, 2020, 8:16 AM UTC

thefounder wrote: post #88

hestefisk wrote: post #61

I’m a Danish citizen. The story doesn’t really surprise me (given the news a few years back that US spy on EU MPs in Brussels by eavesdropping Belgian telcos). The worst part is the complete apathy from Danish politicians to stand up against this kind of spying and take action. It’s completely unacceptable and should be prosecuted; yet none of the centrist parties are interested in or motivated by standing up against…

>> motivated by standing up against the US and their illegal activities. They know they can't do much to stand up against US. I may be wrong but I think Denmark's security is based on US millitary support through NATO. This applies to most EU countries. Russia is too threatening to upset your security guarantor. Here you have it, it's no secret: Denmark opposes the creation of a "European army" to defend the E.U. fro…

Your argument is that EU countries will not stand up to the US, because they are afraid of losing American protection.

However, in case of Germany you linked evidence that goes directly against your argument:

>German Chancellor Angela Merkel on Tuesday called for creating a European Union army, stressing that Europeans can no longer merely rely on the U.S. for their security.

Given the context of the thread, this quote reads like the Germans want to build their own army to spite the US. For example, because the US spied on them.

---

As far as Denmark goes, their feelings regarding the US are probably genuine, but I very much doubt that the Danes see Russia as an existential threat.

The last country to invade and occupy Denmark was Germany, not Russia. If you read between the lines you find that the main security benefit of US/NATO is keeping Europeans from fighting each other rather than defending them from some external threat.

I that sense, I completely agree that US and NATO are the cornerstone of European security. And that's why industrial espionage against them is a bad idea. It makes European countries suspicious of the US and suspicious of each other. The resulting fragmentation leads to insecurity and then we are back to 1939 eyeing each other as our next meal.

Re: NSA Spied on Denmark as It Chose Its Future Fighter Aircraft: Report

#118

Post by throwaway4good » Thu, Nov 19, 2020, 8:19 AM UTC

coldtea wrote: post #105

thefounder wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> motivated by standing up against the US and their illegal activities. They know they can't do much to stand up against US. I may be wrong but I think Denmark's security is based on US millitary support through NATO. This applies to most EU countries. Russia is too threatening to upset your security guarantor. Here you have it, it's no secret: Denmark opposes the creation of a "European army" to defend the E.U. fro…

> They know they can't do much to stand up against US. I may be wrong but I think Denmark's security is based on US millitary support through NATO. This applies to most EU countries. Russia is too threatening to upset your security guarantor. It's amazing how this Cold War old-wives-tale is still what Americans believe... Russia is not USSR - a superpower with half of Europe under its wings -, and is not a threat to…

Agreed. France alone probably has sufficient military power to balance Russia.

European countries can stand up to what is obviously unacceptable (industrial espionage conducted by US military intelligence). But Denmark in the later years have chosen not to.

Re: NSA Spied on Denmark as It Chose Its Future Fighter Aircraft: Report

#119

Post by zaphirplane » Thu, Nov 19, 2020, 8:21 AM UTC

jmnicolas wrote: post #97

thefounder wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> motivated by standing up against the US and their illegal activities. They know they can't do much to stand up against US. I may be wrong but I think Denmark's security is based on US millitary support through NATO. This applies to most EU countries. Russia is too threatening to upset your security guarantor. Here you have it, it's no secret: Denmark opposes the creation of a "European army" to defend the E.U. fro…

> Russia is too threatening to upset your security guarantor. Come on stop spreading this dumb western propaganda, Russia isn't threatening anybody in western Europe. They took Crimea back and sabotaged Ukraine because strategically they can't afford to have yet another NATO country right at their doorstep. They're not going to invade Poland any time soon (what for anyway?). They're not crazy nor blood thirsty. This…

I thought it was about getting land locked not so much having a NATO country on it border

Re: NSA Spied on Denmark as It Chose Its Future Fighter Aircraft: Report

#120

Post by rich_sasha » Thu, Nov 19, 2020, 8:22 AM UTC

coldtea wrote: post #105

thefounder wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> motivated by standing up against the US and their illegal activities. They know they can't do much to stand up against US. I may be wrong but I think Denmark's security is based on US millitary support through NATO. This applies to most EU countries. Russia is too threatening to upset your security guarantor. Here you have it, it's no secret: Denmark opposes the creation of a "European army" to defend the E.U. fro…

> They know they can't do much to stand up against US. I may be wrong but I think Denmark's security is based on US millitary support through NATO. This applies to most EU countries. Russia is too threatening to upset your security guarantor. It's amazing how this Cold War old-wives-tale is still what Americans believe... Russia is not USSR - a superpower with half of Europe under its wings -, and is not a threat to…

> Russia is not USSR - a superpower with half of Europe under its wings -, and is not a threat to anyone

Not by choice, Russians still think the collapse of USSR a tragic mistake, and Putin’s rhetoric ties directly back to it.

Russian “defence” spending is skyrocketing, Russia is holding frequent manoeuvres righ in NATO borders, keeps flying bombers ever-so-slightly into NATO country airspace’s... and most of all, Russia shows it is more than happy to apply brute force to achieve political goals. In Ukraine, Georgia, who’s next?

Denmark, Poland and Sweden, not to mention the Baltic states, are rightly concerned about Russia’s posturing. If it’s not meant to be intimidating and creating a low-level Cold War, then it’s a very odd way of showing neighbourly love.

I’m sure comparisons to American imperialism will follow, and maybe justifiably so. But crucially, US does not invade European countries, voila the pertinent difference.