NSA Spied on Denmark as It Chose Its Future Fighter Aircraft: Report • Hacker News Board

Re: NSA Spied on Denmark as It Chose Its Future Fighter Aircraft: Report

#101

Post by roenxi » Thu, Nov 19, 2020, 7:36 AM UTC

jmnicolas wrote: post #97

thefounder wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> motivated by standing up against the US and their illegal activities. They know they can't do much to stand up against US. I may be wrong but I think Denmark's security is based on US millitary support through NATO. This applies to most EU countries. Russia is too threatening to upset your security guarantor. Here you have it, it's no secret: Denmark opposes the creation of a "European army" to defend the E.U. fro…

> Russia is too threatening to upset your security guarantor. Come on stop spreading this dumb western propaganda, Russia isn't threatening anybody in western Europe. They took Crimea back and sabotaged Ukraine because strategically they can't afford to have yet another NATO country right at their doorstep. They're not going to invade Poland any time soon (what for anyway?). They're not crazy nor blood thirsty. This…

If you look past the propaganda, basically there are a bunch of countries in the world. One would assume that Russia/North Korea/China/the UK/Kazakhstan/Somalia etc want to invade other places about as much as America does.

So if you look at America's record for foreign 'Peacekeeping' it seems prudent to keep a sizeable army on hand to defend against the Russians. Places with strong armies invade places that aren't protected by strong armies.

Re: NSA Spied on Denmark as It Chose Its Future Fighter Aircraft: Report

#102

Post by goatinaboat » Thu, Nov 19, 2020, 7:41 AM UTC

thefounder wrote: post #88

hestefisk wrote: post #61

I’m a Danish citizen. The story doesn’t really surprise me (given the news a few years back that US spy on EU MPs in Brussels by eavesdropping Belgian telcos). The worst part is the complete apathy from Danish politicians to stand up against this kind of spying and take action. It’s completely unacceptable and should be prosecuted; yet none of the centrist parties are interested in or motivated by standing up against…

>> motivated by standing up against the US and their illegal activities. They know they can't do much to stand up against US. I may be wrong but I think Denmark's security is based on US millitary support through NATO. This applies to most EU countries. Russia is too threatening to upset your security guarantor. Here you have it, it's no secret: Denmark opposes the creation of a "European army" to defend the E.U. fro…

German Chancellor Angela Merkel on Tuesday called for creating a European Union army, stressing that Europeans can no longer merely rely on the U.S. for their security.

It will never happen. There has been - on paper - a Franco-German brigade for decades, it’s never deployed anywhere. Meanwhile supposed arch-rivals UK and France have been doing joint operations all over the place and this is only set to increase.

Besides it was all triggered by Trump saying some NATO countries were failing to meet their commitments, and no one knows what Biden thinks about it

Re: NSA Spied on Denmark as It Chose Its Future Fighter Aircraft: Report

#103

Post by cturner » Thu, Nov 19, 2020, 7:42 AM UTC

thefounder wrote: post #88

hestefisk wrote: post #61

I’m a Danish citizen. The story doesn’t really surprise me (given the news a few years back that US spy on EU MPs in Brussels by eavesdropping Belgian telcos). The worst part is the complete apathy from Danish politicians to stand up against this kind of spying and take action. It’s completely unacceptable and should be prosecuted; yet none of the centrist parties are interested in or motivated by standing up against…

>> motivated by standing up against the US and their illegal activities. They know they can't do much to stand up against US. I may be wrong but I think Denmark's security is based on US millitary support through NATO. This applies to most EU countries. Russia is too threatening to upset your security guarantor. Here you have it, it's no secret: Denmark opposes the creation of a "European army" to defend the E.U. fro…

I find the idea of a European army to be the stuff of fantasy.

The reason Europe is so dependent on the US is because European NATO members have for decades chosen not to honour their spending and capability obligations to that treaty. Certainly this includes Denmark. A quick google suggests this rich nation is spending 1.3% instead of the 2% minimum.

Meanwhile, Russia, a less prosperous nation with a history of muscular military engagement, is spending more than six percent of its much larger GDP on military.

Due to its regular shadow operations in other countries, Russia has a ready supply of veteran soldiers who could be drawn on in a hostile engagement. European nations could have used the ‘NATO’ Afghanistan invasion as an opportunity to develop a similar pool, but made only token efforts.

Germany is even worse than Denmark. It is laughable for Merkel to make these comments. She has been in power for fifteen years. All through that time, Germany has been amongst the worst NATO members against it’s treaty obligations.

Beyond the realities of military capability, there are the political problems. The European group have no history of coordinated executive action. Structurally, they are in a weaker position to coordinate a war even than the US was in its articles of confederation era.

Re: NSA Spied on Denmark as It Chose Its Future Fighter Aircraft: Report

#104

Post by guest3456780 » Thu, Nov 19, 2020, 7:43 AM UTC

hestefisk wrote: post #61

I’m a Danish citizen. The story doesn’t really surprise me (given the news a few years back that US spy on EU MPs in Brussels by eavesdropping Belgian telcos). The worst part is the complete apathy from Danish politicians to stand up against this kind of spying and take action. It’s completely unacceptable and should be prosecuted; yet none of the centrist parties are interested in or motivated by standing up against…

The main issue for EU with regard to NSA/USA, is that NSA makes no difference on data collection and USA government makes no difference in intelligence use. NSA collects all data they can and USA government uses that to maximize USA interests, no matter if it is terrorism or industrial espionage and information sharing with their US national businesses against EU. Unlike USA, EU has nothing that organized in place to match that threat.

Re: NSA Spied on Denmark as It Chose Its Future Fighter Aircraft: Report

#105

Post by coldtea » Thu, Nov 19, 2020, 7:46 AM UTC

thefounder wrote: post #88

hestefisk wrote: post #61

I’m a Danish citizen. The story doesn’t really surprise me (given the news a few years back that US spy on EU MPs in Brussels by eavesdropping Belgian telcos). The worst part is the complete apathy from Danish politicians to stand up against this kind of spying and take action. It’s completely unacceptable and should be prosecuted; yet none of the centrist parties are interested in or motivated by standing up against…

>> motivated by standing up against the US and their illegal activities. They know they can't do much to stand up against US. I may be wrong but I think Denmark's security is based on US millitary support through NATO. This applies to most EU countries. Russia is too threatening to upset your security guarantor. Here you have it, it's no secret: Denmark opposes the creation of a "European army" to defend the E.U. fro…

>They know they can't do much to stand up against US. I may be wrong but I think Denmark's security is based on US millitary support through NATO. This applies to most EU countries. Russia is too threatening to upset your security guarantor.

It's amazing how this Cold War old-wives-tale is still what Americans believe...

Russia is not USSR - a superpower with half of Europe under its wings -, and is not a threat to anyone (and in no great shape to be a threat, even if they wanted), except immediate neighbors they have disputes with for centuries, and which, more often than not, are themselves armed and weaponized by NATO as proxies against it.

Re: NSA Spied on Denmark as It Chose Its Future Fighter Aircraft: Report

#106

Post by coldtea » Thu, Nov 19, 2020, 7:48 AM UTC

cturner wrote: post #103

thefounder wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> motivated by standing up against the US and their illegal activities. They know they can't do much to stand up against US. I may be wrong but I think Denmark's security is based on US millitary support through NATO. This applies to most EU countries. Russia is too threatening to upset your security guarantor. Here you have it, it's no secret: Denmark opposes the creation of a "European army" to defend the E.U. fro…

I find the idea of a European army to be the stuff of fantasy. The reason Europe is so dependent on the US is because European NATO members have for decades chosen not to honour their spending and capability obligations to that treaty. Certainly this includes Denmark. A quick google suggests this rich nation is spending 1.3% instead of the 2% minimum. Meanwhile, Russia, a less prosperous nation with a history of musc…

>The reason Europe is so dependent on the US is because European NATO members have for decades chosen not to honour their spending and capability obligations to that treaty. Certainly this includes Denmark. A quick google suggests this rich nation is spending 1.3% instead of the 2% minimum.

That "treaty" was pushed to European nations, mafia style, and voted in by right-wing parties and politicians (sometimes right-wing to the point of dictatorship), in the Cold War era, as protection against USSR.

It's still pushed now through diplomatic pressure, profitable handouts to vote in favor, etc., not because those nations really want it.

Re: NSA Spied on Denmark as It Chose Its Future Fighter Aircraft: Report

#107

Post by guest3456789 » Thu, Nov 19, 2020, 7:49 AM UTC

msh wrote: post #96

hestefisk wrote: post #61

I’m a Danish citizen. The story doesn’t really surprise me (given the news a few years back that US spy on EU MPs in Brussels by eavesdropping Belgian telcos). The worst part is the complete apathy from Danish politicians to stand up against this kind of spying and take action. It’s completely unacceptable and should be prosecuted; yet none of the centrist parties are interested in or motivated by standing up against…

I am also danish, I would guess a large part is that we have no alternative to the US as a defence partner. If for example russia wanted greenland, I dont feel confident that any other of our allies would put soldiers on the ground to defend it.

Not trying to being sceptic here, but before and after seeing the latest Greenland movie, I think USA owns already Greenland de facto for all practical purposes. Denmark just has it on paper and pays the costs. If Russia wanted to take Greenland (why?), then USA will fight of course because it is already theirs.

Re: NSA Spied on Denmark as It Chose Its Future Fighter Aircraft: Report

#108

Post by coldtea » Thu, Nov 19, 2020, 7:49 AM UTC

roenxi wrote: post #101

jmnicolas wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Russia is too threatening to upset your security guarantor. Come on stop spreading this dumb western propaganda, Russia isn't threatening anybody in western Europe. They took Crimea back and sabotaged Ukraine because strategically they can't afford to have yet another NATO country right at their doorstep. They're not going to invade Poland any time soon (what for anyway?). They're not crazy nor blood thirsty. This…

If you look past the propaganda, basically there are a bunch of countries in the world. One would assume that Russia/North Korea/China/the UK/Kazakhstan/Somalia etc want to invade other places about as much as America does. So if you look at America's record for foreign 'Peacekeeping' it seems prudent to keep a sizeable army on hand to defend against the Russians. Places with strong armies invade places that aren't p…

>One would assume that Russia/North Korea/China/the UK/Kazakhstan/Somalia etc want to invade other places about as much as America does.

Historically, not every country did it "as much as America does", and not globally.

Both because of differences in culture, and because of differences in role and capacity.

Re: NSA Spied on Denmark as It Chose Its Future Fighter Aircraft: Report

#109

Post by vishnugupta » Thu, Nov 19, 2020, 7:52 AM UTC

Atlantium wrote: post #78

grey-area wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nations should spy on enemies, not friends, lest they find themselves without friends. Also spies should not be used for the benefit of corporations (in this case arms dealers) under cover of ‘national security’.

No nation is friends with another nation. Nations are allies. Ally : a state formally cooperating with another for a military or other purpose. Friend : a person whom one knows and with whom one has a bond of mutual affection, typically exclusive of sexual or family relations. Allies work together for rational mutual purposes, friends work together for emotional reasons. Besides, humans of all nations have far too ma…

This is a good model to refer to from time to time.

I would add that "ally" doesn't mean co-operate in all spheres. It's perfectly reasonable for two nations to have border skirmishes and have bi/multi-lateral trade agreements simultaneously.

A nation is a multifaceted entity and it isn't possible to model it as one single blob. Inter-nation relationships are very fluid, and evolving all the time.

I find it funny when I see Indian social media flare up with "ban Chinese goods" whenever there are border skirmishes. It's as if trade and border-disputes somehow won't fit together and that there is a very sharp line between "ally" and "enemy".

Unfortunately, politicians take advantage of this sharp divide in people's mind to rally large groups of people against an imagined threat from a nation to garner support/votes. My father-in-law was very agitated about India-China border skirmish thanks to all the media coverage. In his mind Indian economy would be doomed. I asked him if the condition of the shitty public road he travels by each day improve if India won that dispute. He is perfectly fine to accept the crappy day-to-day life (non-existent roads, shitty power supply, un-usable water etc.,) but would suddenly get riled with some random dispute thousands of miles away!

Re: NSA Spied on Denmark as It Chose Its Future Fighter Aircraft: Report

#110

Post by paganel » Thu, Nov 19, 2020, 7:52 AM UTC

cturner wrote: post #103

thefounder wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> motivated by standing up against the US and their illegal activities. They know they can't do much to stand up against US. I may be wrong but I think Denmark's security is based on US millitary support through NATO. This applies to most EU countries. Russia is too threatening to upset your security guarantor. Here you have it, it's no secret: Denmark opposes the creation of a "European army" to defend the E.U. fro…

I find the idea of a European army to be the stuff of fantasy. The reason Europe is so dependent on the US is because European NATO members have for decades chosen not to honour their spending and capability obligations to that treaty. Certainly this includes Denmark. A quick google suggests this rich nation is spending 1.3% instead of the 2% minimum. Meanwhile, Russia, a less prosperous nation with a history of musc…

The problem with an European Army is that the French or the Italians or even the Germans won't send their young men to die at the Eastern border in order to defend Poland or Romania, it's as simple as that (see also the "phoney war" that only ended when Nazi Germany actually decided to invade France and the Benelux). The Americans inspire a little more trust, even though they live half a world away (maybe because of that). Source: me, living in Romania.