Ferrari is bricked during upgrade due to no mobile reception while underground • Hacker News Board

Re: Ferrari is bricked during upgrade due to no mobile reception while underground

#91

Post by gambiting » Mon, Oct 12, 2020, 4:11 PM UTC

VBprogrammer wrote: post #81

callamdelaney wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with gambiting. Yeah, it sucks, but just tow your car outside and turn it on again. These things exist for a reason. If it had really been stolen, and there was the work around of 'oh, there's no signal so we'll let the car start and drive off' - then a thief could permanently jam that signal, or remove the electronic device responsible for receiving that signal. E.g, it's not perfect but it is secure.

Just tow your car outside sounds like a recipe for losing half a day trying to organise that. Additionally, even average cars these days tend to have removable towing eyes with easily damaged plastic blanking plugs. The chance of damaging an expensive car doing this seems very high. Especially trying to drag it out of an underground car park. If I owned a towing company I'd take a hard pass on that job.

Like I said in another comment - this just seems like a standard auto alarm trigger, most alarms will disable the car until they are reset. The only thing that makes it stand out here is that normally thanks to the mobile link Ferrari can reset it remotely. If it didn't have that the car would be equally "bricked" and it wouldn't be a story at all.

Re: Ferrari is bricked during upgrade due to no mobile reception while underground

#92

Post by mprovost » Mon, Oct 12, 2020, 4:11 PM UTC

ceilingcorner wrote: post #63

Wonder if there will be a market for gasoline-powdered, or at least non-network connected, cars in the future. This sort of scenario makes me want to never buy an electric car, ever.

There is still a market for horses.

Re: Ferrari is bricked during upgrade due to no mobile reception while underground

#93

Post by bdamm » Mon, Oct 12, 2020, 4:11 PM UTC

lozaning wrote: post #79

LeonM wrote: post #70

A lot of readers here, and on Reddit seem to be misunderstanding the situation. The way I understand it, this car was taken in by a garage for 'seat installation'. I presume this means after market seats. The car disabled itself during installation. The OP assumed due to an anti-temper device, but it could have been any failure mode. Most modern cars with airbags will have sensors in the seats to disable some of the…

>The fact that the manufacturer can remote into their cars, does not automatically mean that the car is vulnerable to remote hacking If your car can connect to the internet it's vulnerable to hacking via the internet. My car, which is incapable of connecting to the internet suffers no such potential for abuse.

Just because the car has external connectivity doesn't mean the car has abusable vulnerabilities. Of course, some vendors are going to be better than others when it comes to hardening, pen-testing, and good operational security.

Re: Ferrari is bricked during upgrade due to no mobile reception while underground

#94

Post by rlpb » Mon, Oct 12, 2020, 4:12 PM UTC

LeonM wrote: post #70

A lot of readers here, and on Reddit seem to be misunderstanding the situation. The way I understand it, this car was taken in by a garage for 'seat installation'. I presume this means after market seats. The car disabled itself during installation. The OP assumed due to an anti-temper device, but it could have been any failure mode. Most modern cars with airbags will have sensors in the seats to disable some of the…

> The solution here was probably simple: bring the car outside, and let Ferrari do it's thing. Or trailer it to a certified dealership to have it reset there.

This sounds like it invokes the "right to repair" issue though. Is this "Right to repair, but only if the car's online"?

Re: Ferrari is bricked during upgrade due to no mobile reception while underground

#95

Post by Scoundreller » Mon, Oct 12, 2020, 4:13 PM UTC

adriancr wrote: post #31

fb03 wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Jokes aside, cars have not been analog anymore for decades ;-( Most stuff (even stuff that looks analog like the speed gauge) now runs thru buses and OBD allows you to tap into almost every controllable aspect of the car if you know the 'right api' for the device.

As long as the control systems are properly air-gapped you should be fine. (doesn't work for jeep apparently due to cost savings... https://www.wired.com/2015/07/hackers-remotely-kill-jeep-hig... ) won't stop someone physically breaking in and connecting something to the bus but the alarm should sound in that case.

Well, it's a 2-step process. It's hard to find a car without remote-unlock. From there, you have access to OBD.

OBD port is +12, GND, TX and RX pin if you just want to connect to 1 bus. Shouldn't be too hard MITM that if you have physical access.

Re: Ferrari is bricked during upgrade due to no mobile reception while underground

#96

Post by pmontra » Mon, Oct 12, 2020, 4:13 PM UTC

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #57

gambiting wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think preventing your car from being stolen is an extremely basic issue - it's a risk that exists at the back of your mind constantly when you drive an expensive vehicle, so yeah, I'm glad the car does this. The situation in here is more like "haha, ok, we just need to tow this thing out of the garage and try again" - no big deal.

> The situation in here is more like "haha, ok, we just need to tow this thing out of the garage and try again" - no big deal. No big deal when the reason you can't get a signal is that you're in a parking garage. Rather more of a life-threatening defect when the reason you can't get a signal is that you're driving through an unpopulated desert where there are no cell towers or other people.

Failure modes and effect analysis [1] or let me do a computer security analogy: threat model.

A desert should be considered for a Toyota Landcruiser, for a Ferrari it would be a low probability cell of the matrix. Stuck in a tunnel underground? More likely to happen. In a concrete building with people tampering the car? Even more likely.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Failure_mode_and_effects_analy...

Re: Ferrari is bricked during upgrade due to no mobile reception while underground

#97

Post by hrktb » Mon, Oct 12, 2020, 4:13 PM UTC

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #57

gambiting wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think preventing your car from being stolen is an extremely basic issue - it's a risk that exists at the back of your mind constantly when you drive an expensive vehicle, so yeah, I'm glad the car does this. The situation in here is more like "haha, ok, we just need to tow this thing out of the garage and try again" - no big deal.

> The situation in here is more like "haha, ok, we just need to tow this thing out of the garage and try again" - no big deal. No big deal when the reason you can't get a signal is that you're in a parking garage. Rather more of a life-threatening defect when the reason you can't get a signal is that you're driving through an unpopulated desert where there are no cell towers or other people.

> driving through an unpopulated desert where there are no cell towers or other people

These kind of cars can and do fail for many other reasons, basically parts reliability is not a top priority.

Being in a desert with no possible assistance is just a situation you'll want to avoid, anti-theft system or not.

Re: Ferrari is bricked during upgrade due to no mobile reception while underground

#98

Post by recursive » Mon, Oct 12, 2020, 4:15 PM UTC

comeonseriously wrote: post #83

Sebb767 wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In a Honda Accord, yes. In a Ferrari, though?

Rich people don't have babies? Heck, now-a-days they're the only ones can truly afford them.

Rich people do have babies, just not as many. And they can afford a reasonable car to put a carseat in. In addition to the Ferrari.

Re: Ferrari is bricked during upgrade due to no mobile reception while underground

#99

Post by birdyrooster » Mon, Oct 12, 2020, 4:15 PM UTC

jobu wrote: post #87

LeonM wrote: post #70

A lot of readers here, and on Reddit seem to be misunderstanding the situation. The way I understand it, this car was taken in by a garage for 'seat installation'. I presume this means after market seats. The car disabled itself during installation. The OP assumed due to an anti-temper device, but it could have been any failure mode. Most modern cars with airbags will have sensors in the seats to disable some of the…

> The way I understand it, this car was taken in by a garage for 'seat installation'. I presume this means after market seats. It was even more basic than that. They were installing a child's carseat for the owner, and I believe it was an anti-theft system that was triggered. The story reminded me a lot of the rental car that bricked itself because it lost cellular service - https://arstechnica.com/cars/2020/02/drive…

Who puts a child’s carseat in a Ferrari?

Re: Ferrari is bricked during upgrade due to no mobile reception while underground

#100

Post by covercash » Mon, Oct 12, 2020, 4:16 PM UTC

PJDK wrote: post #12

Reading through it seems like people are misinterpreting this. By my reading the car has an anti-theft device that was triggered by the installation of seats. There is a remote system to override the anti-theft device, but that doesn't work because it requires mobile reception. It's kind of funny, but this doesn't really tell you anything about the dangers of "smart cars" or anything.

> the car has an anti-theft device that was triggered by the installation of seats. There is a remote system to override the anti-theft device, but that doesn't work because it requires mobile reception.

I’ve been following the thread on Reddit and there’s an added piece you’re missing. The mechanic triggered the anti-theft device so the car went into an initial lock down, that can be disabled remotely by Ferrari. The mechanic contacts Ferrari who can’t override the anti-theft because the car is without signal. At this stage the anti-theft mechanism is also attempting to contact Ferrari, probably with location data to help recover the car, still thinking it has been stolen. But due to the fact that it can’t get a signal out, it assumes the worst and enters full lock down mode that requires some sort of fix that can only be performed by Ferrari themselves.