Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes • Hacker News Board

Re: Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

#471

Post by actuator » Thu, Sep 24, 2020, 5:57 PM UTC

cwhiz wrote: post #437

actuator wrote: post #343

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Apple is doing what everyone else is doing Microsoft has the Xbox Game Pass app on Android, Apple is doing the opposite. > but if that is illegal then it should also be illegal for Epic to have a monopoly on skins in Rocket League. I think the analogy doesn't fit. Like a laptop/desktop, smartphones are general computing platforms. Specific purpose devices like iPods, Nintendo Switch really don't fit into this categ…

>Microsoft has the Xbox Game Pass app on Android, Apple is doing the opposite. I don't see the relevance? Microsoft does not allow any other company to distribute digital games for Microsoft consoles. You, nor anyone else, may create an Xbox store and sell digital games that will run on Xbox consoles. >I think the analogy doesn't fit. Like a laptop/desktop, smartphones are general computing platforms. Specific purpos…

> I don't see the relevance? Microsoft does not allow any other company to distribute digital games for Microsoft consoles. You, nor anyone else, may create an Xbox store and sell digital games that will run on Xbox consoles.

While I would even argue for openness there but you are comparing a specific use platform to a general computing platform.

> Is that not what we have? If you don't like Apple then you can go buy an Android phone. If you don't like macOS you can go run Windows or Linux. Who has the monopoly here?

I was talking about few companies owning everything in different verticals. I would want a independent music platform like Spotify to flourish and not just Apple Music. I would want an independent movie platform like Netflix to flourish and not just iTunes. You can see where I am going with this.

> If smartphones are computing platforms, then Apple doesn't have a monopoly, because then you can choose another computing platform. Apple products as computing platforms are an extreme minority.

Apple is not a minority by any stretch. They own half of the smartphones sold in US and a significant share in the world. If I am a platform like Spotify I have to be on it, otherwise I lose a significant userbase. Adding to this, a service like Hey saw 90% of the revenue come from iPhones. They were signing up users on the web, just turns out that 90% of their paying users had iPhones.

Adding to that, Spotify has to compete with Apple Music which doesn't pay the 30% tax, gets free placement on the phone and store and deep integrations with their product.

As a developer does this seem fair to you?

Re: Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

#472

Post by ornitorrincos » Thu, Sep 24, 2020, 5:58 PM UTC

adwi wrote: post #152

shadowgovt wrote: post #50

Ah, okay. Now I begin to see their goals. I've been trying to wrap my head around why Epic would shoulder-tackle Apple in the space of app stores, when they have their own app store. Naively, I've been thinking that any ruling adverse to Apple here also impacts Epic's business model---if the government caps app store revenue cuts at, say, 10%, that's a slice off the top of what Epic can charge developers going throug…

I think it’s worth noting how hostile Epic’s app store is to its customers. They force you to use it to launch games you’ve already purchased from them, which just means you have to waste processor cycles to wade through a grip of their blaring ads (and can only imagine the data they’re collecting/monetizing from this) Pure enter through the gift shop. The dark patterns are egregious as well; a tech-savvy friend boug…

I have never experienced that, and I use it since it was purely for the unreal engine, could you provide more details? I'm curious.

For what its worth, the game store sucks and the ue4 assets store works better, which probably shows where their attention is on

Re: Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

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Post by leetcrew » Thu, Sep 24, 2020, 6:00 PM UTC

lotsofpulp wrote: post #337

curiousllama wrote: post #317

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Analogies can be powerful if told well. It just so happens that they're hard to tell well. Source: Cheerios

What does it mean for an analogy to be powerful? I typically see analogies used to support an argument, which analogies don't do. Hence you see the conversation break down into whether or not the analogy is accurate or not. Analogies illustrate a concept. They don't establish reasoning or causation or proof.

argument by analogy is something like A -> B, C is similar to A in all ways that matter, thus (A -> B) -> (C -> D). analogies are powerful when the other person already agrees that (A -> B) and doesn't notice any important differences between A and C. if you use an analogy where the other person doesn't agree that A -> B in the first place, you'll never get anywhere. if they are really stubborn, they will come up with an endless list of reasons why A isn't quite like C, but at least you have a chance of refuting these.

analogies are not very good in arguments where the other person is resisting the conclusion you want to draw. they can be great when you are trying to teach/explain something to someone who trusts you though.

Re: Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

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Post by DevKoala » Thu, Sep 24, 2020, 6:01 PM UTC

stefano wrote: post #249

DevKoala wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why? As a developer it sounds like a nightmare, but as a costumer, I like it. It makes for a great experience.

Because it's as far as you can go from being a "Hacker".

But I am a customer too. For example, a couple months ago an, ad got my mom to install an app without her consent. She said she could not escape the page until she clicked okay, and she wasn’t aware the app had installed at all. I noticed because I started receiving charges for a subscription to the app services. A simple chat with Apple support granted me a reimbursement. As a customer, Apple treats me well. I understand where tons of developers are coming from, but as a customer I haven’t had a better experience.

Re: Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

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Post by lotsofpulp » Thu, Sep 24, 2020, 6:01 PM UTC

dec0dedab0de wrote: post #345

lotsofpulp wrote: post #327

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I assume a device's security is improved by being hampering the ability to install software. Can I rely on an Android device to not be tampered with or have malware just as much as I can an iOS device? I don't mean secure as in the NSA can't break into it. I mean secure as in normal people can't mess it up clicking bullshit links in WhatsApp messages.

I'm guessing you don't use Android at all, but it is very difficult to accidentally install something outside of the play store. I would even say it is tricky to purposely install something outside of the play store.

I did from 2010 to 2015 and while I didn't have a problem, my dad was able to get malware on his. He actually was iOS from 2010 to 2014 then android 2015 to 2018, and then he kept messing his device up so I told him I'm not helping him unless he goes to iOS.

All I know is I needed a 100% guarantee the device won't be tampered with by random people for my business and that other than turning it off and on, there was no tech support needed. To me, this meant going with Apple.

Re: Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

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Post by pb7 » Thu, Sep 24, 2020, 6:01 PM UTC

bluedevil2k wrote: post #390

pb7 wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is this different than "if developers are happy and willingly develop for iOS then [the fees] are not a rip-off"?

The developers aren’t happy. No one forces a Fortnite player to buy skins or emotes, Apple forces developers to pay the fee.

No one is forcing them to develop for iOS. I will bet you dollars to donuts developers are very happy about the money they make from iOS otherwise they wouldn't be there.

Re: Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

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Post by bluedevil2k » Thu, Sep 24, 2020, 6:01 PM UTC

DivisionSol wrote: post #442

bluedevil2k wrote: post #390

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The developers aren’t happy. No one forces a Fortnite player to buy skins or emotes, Apple forces developers to pay the fee.

Er, no one is forcing any developer to make an app for iOS.

I see this type of comment a lot in these discussions on the App Store - "no one is forcing you to make an iOS app". No, no one is holding a gun to your head to make an iOS app. But you know what, people need to make money to pay the mortgage and feed their kids.

If you're a programmer who has years of experience, who wants to make money in the field you have years of experience in, the field you likely enjoy doing and are good at, then YES you are forced to make an app on iOS because that's where the majority of the paying customers are.

It's a bogus excuse to say "don't make an iOS app then". That's akin to telling a programmer "just learn to eat a little less".

Re: Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

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Post by chefandy » Thu, Sep 24, 2020, 6:01 PM UTC

dgellow wrote: post #296

danShumway wrote: post #11

Can we just link directly to the advocacy group's page ( https://appfairness.org/ )? I'm not certain the article is adding anything. ---- I'm generally supportive of at least some of Epic's arguments towards Apple, and I do believe that Apple (and multiple other FAANG companies) are engaged in anti-competitive behavior that's currently hurting the market. But a lot of the arguments I'm reading on the App Fairness sit…

What I learned from past experiences is to never use analogies. They are almost always a source of distraction, people start to argue about the analogy itself instead of the topic at hand, which is almost always completely counter productive. Also it often only makes sense in the mind of the author...

Analogies are like regular expressions...

Re: Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

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Post by xlii » Thu, Sep 24, 2020, 6:01 PM UTC

capableweb wrote: post #433

xlii wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Epic introduced the concept of exclusivity on the PC gaming scene. Earlier Steam (which arguably is monopoly) provided option to buy games but those games could be distributed from outside - and many games did so. Right now Epic locks some of the games in their EGS store. Few kickstarted games were "bought" by Epic into (and which I personally backed, but I have no access to unless I accept their conditions). There i…

> Epic introduced the concept of exclusivity on the PC gaming scene Which event are you referring to exactly? I think the first time I encountered something related to exclusivity on PC gaming was the first time I bought CS:Source and had to download and sign up with Steam to be able to run it, even though I got it on a CD/DVD. This must have been around 2005 or so I think.

Uhm but you’re aware that CS:Source was developed by Valve company behind the Steam? The same goes true for Unreal Tournament. You want to play it you install Epic installer. That’s fine point. Rockstar and Ubisoft have their own launchers and it’s not an issue.

Issue is that Epic holds the 3rd party games, snatching them from early access etc. effectively limit previously open access.

Re: Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

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Post by lern_too_spel » Thu, Sep 24, 2020, 6:02 PM UTC

lotsofpulp wrote: post #278

echelon wrote: post #251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Go use another phone if you don't like it. Half of my audience is on your favorite device. I didn't have to pay for them before Apple sunk their claws in. Even if there wasn't a tax, the lack of freedom is what really gets me. Apple built itself atop open source. They leveraged it to gain control over 40% of the CPUs used by consumers. Now we can't run code for these people. I applaud their privacy stance. But free…

My experience with freedom to run software resulted in me spending an inordinate amount of time dealing with malware. If anyone wants to come up with a freedom to run software alternative that doesn’t result in me dealing with malware, I’m open to it. Until then, I have to pay Apple, because I don’t have time to deal with the alternatives currently available. Edit: >Half of my audience is on your favorite device. I d…

I use Android, and the Google and Amazon Android devices combined have had less malware infections than iOS despite having vastly more users. I get to run my own apps on my device without telling anybody, so there is also more privacy. You've been hoodwinked into supporting a restrictive platform that benefits only Apple.