Over 90% of Indian techies in the US are upper-caste Indians • Hacker News Board

Re: Over 90% of Indian techies in the US are upper-caste Indians

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Post by Bodhisattya » Wed, Sep 23, 2020, 1:05 PM UTC

lowend wrote: post #214

ITT: (Possibly) "Upper caste" Indians claiming: 1. This is due to a few bad apples 2. Reservation is the real problem (no it's not) 3. I don't do it therefore it doesn't exist I can tell you by experience the amount of concious and unconcious bias regarding caste amongst Indians both in India and abroad is ridiculous! I'm light skinned so people assume I'm "upper caste" and speak with me as such. My last name doesn't…

Even as a beneficiary of the reservation system, I do wonder whether it is the answer. I personally feel the caste identity is tied deeply with religion and both tend to get utilized by the powers that be, in a similar manner. Ultimately, it falls onto us to uplift ourselves, as frankly, I don't see why anyone, would willingly give up something that benefits them, especially when it is considered a part of their birthright.

Re: Over 90% of Indian techies in the US are upper-caste Indians

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Post by srean » Wed, Sep 23, 2020, 1:08 PM UTC

Igelau wrote: post #396

Ichthypresbyter wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is why Sikhs are supposed to all have the same surname (Singh for men, Kaur for women). Sikhism has always been strongly opposed to the caste system- see, for instance, their tradition of offering free food to anyone who wants it as long as they will eat with everyone else there. According to a Sikh friend, in practice, Sikhs are still aware of caste- in fact, Sikhs from a high-caste background are more likely t…

That might explain some things... I had an Indian colleague once who used to tell "Sikh jokes" that he claimed were his cultural equivalent of "Blond jokes".

They are closer to the "An Irishman and a Scotsman …" genre. Part of the reason there are so many Sardar jokes (that's what they are called) is that they (the Sardars) are very sporting and secure people. They don't mind being a butt of these jokes and start many of those themselves. My roommate (who was a Sardar, equivalently, a Sikh) used to say he would keep two glasses, one filled with water and another empty, in the night on his bedstead because in the middle of the night he might be thirsty, but then he might not be. Things like these are essentially baits to encourage such jokes.

But back to the PP a big part of Sikhism's break from Hinduism was the rejection of casteism. So it is built in. Someone who is more familiar will be able to elaborate more. What I have heard is that its root lies in agrarian anti-caste movements.

Re: Over 90% of Indian techies in the US are upper-caste Indians

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Post by pkphilip » Wed, Sep 23, 2020, 1:09 PM UTC

screye wrote: post #297

eqtn wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

During the previous discussions some has mentioned that they converted to a different religion

Both Christianity and Islam observe upper and lower castes in India. What's worse is the discrimination they face sees almost no recognition, since on paper neither of those religions acknowledge caste. A short look - https://theprint.in/opinion/indias-muslim-community-under-a-... > 85% of the Muslim representatives in the Parliamentary House are from the 15% (ashraf) upper caste. (PARETO!) A detailed look at it - ht…

As someone who comes from a Christian background in India I would like to add here that while the caste system (unfortunately) exists even among the Christians and Muslims in India it is nowhere near as strong as among the Hindus.

There are indeed situations where in parts of the country there are even cemeteries divided on the basis of caste but this is far from being the norm.

However, there are many low caste priests and even bishops in Christianity - which is a very rare occurrance among Hindus where priests are almost exclusively brahmin except for very rare exceptions.

Re: Over 90% of Indian techies in the US are upper-caste Indians

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Post by tracker1 » Wed, Sep 23, 2020, 1:12 PM UTC

sudoaza wrote: post #287

rvn1045 wrote: post #92

The lack of self awareness amongst upper caste Indians in India and abroad is interesting to witness. They often think of themselves as having come from humble backgrounds and 'made it' in society all on their own. Not realizing that the vast majority of Indians in India live in abject poverty without any meaningful access to basic education and other amenities. Upper caste Indians are more likely to have access to b…

This is true for most countries, how many developers do you know that come from real poor families? In my experience most had it pretty good, that's why they had a computer and maybe internet growing up, and time to play with it, and time to study instead of working to support yourself and the family.

No computer, no internet growing up, but then again, I was born in '74. If I were to guess, probably grew up in the bottom 30% or so. Never had a "new" car growing up, always rented (though my parents did finally 'buy' when I was around 25 or so). Didn't put down on a house of my own until about 2 years ago (43yo at the time).

That said, I've had a tendency to spoil myself since I started making good money over a decade ago (top ~10% or so). I'm not rich, I don't have generational wealth, and I have a modest amount of debt. My daughter just turned 18yo, and is graduating HS in the spring. I'm doing what I can to help her make the best decisions for what she wants to do.

In the end, I kind of lucked out. I got into programming around the right time... managed to recover from a very hard year when the .com bubble burst in early 00's. Despite my parents being together my entire life, I haven't managed to do the same. I'm twice divorced, and currently engaged, and hesitant.

I've effectively had to start from roughly nothing three times in my life. I was kicked out as a young adult. After the .com bust, I had only what could fit in the back of my pickup, repo'd 3 months after 9/11. And after my second divorce, I didn't have much to speak of.

All told, I've been relatively fortunate, and determined through my life to keep pushing forward. I've managed to push through my personality disorder (similar to add/adhd). I've fought with pretty severe depression several times. I push through regular anxiety. Though I tend to push full burn until I burn out (getting close now).

I'm not so much complaining as stating that not everyone doing relatively well started off that well, or had the advantages that many will assume. And even then, you can walk out of a situation with pretty much nothing and still climb back out again. Right now, my heart goes out to everyone who is losing everything they have, watching it all fall apart. A lot of the top 10-50% will wind up in the bottom 50% when it's all said and done.

I will say that of the people from other cultures that I've worked with in my life, those from India tend to have more interesting interactions based on the caste they grew up in. The variance is far broader than most Americans, Russians or Chinese I've worked with. Though most of the Chinese I've worked with are also from a wealthy background typically. Russians who have come up pre vs post communism vary a lot though, mostly from their experience. But those are just my observations.

Okay, going to stop rambling now.

Re: Over 90% of Indian techies in the US are upper-caste Indians

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Post by Loughla » Wed, Sep 23, 2020, 1:14 PM UTC

fhood wrote: post #440

Loughla wrote: post #259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure why you're being downvoted - maybe it's the flippant response? The message is correct, though. The caste system in India sounds exactly like the class system in the US, only more formalized. In my area, there absolutely are surnames that you can associate with 'those' people, and who are, in my experience, passed over for jobs. Maybe it's my ignorance, but doesn't a caste system whereby you are exposed t…

Can you elaborate further? In very small towns surname can link you to a specific family, but outside of that and something like anti-semitism, I don't think I've ever heard of surname related association of that kind in the US.

I guess, it depends on your definition of 'very small town'. My closest city center is 100k, and there definitely are names associated with 'those'. They tend to be names associated with lower-income folks who have run-ins with the law.

For example - we recently hired an entry level position, and one of the search committee members tried to veto a candidate because of her last name. This name is one that comes from the wrong side of the tracks, and is quite a poor family. Nothing about this young lady indicated anything but an ability to do the job well, but the committee member just "didn't trust an [last name here]".

That was a fun conversation.

It's absolutely prevalent in smaller towns. Where I grew up the population was 40k, with smaller towns (As soon as I moved, I was fast-tracked up the organization. I have to imagine it's based on my name around my home town.

Re: Over 90% of Indian techies in the US are upper-caste Indians

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Post by bluGill » Wed, Sep 23, 2020, 1:59 PM UTC

DobryMorozov wrote: post #511

bluGill wrote: post #359

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a rule all women breed (there are exceptions of course). In some societies high status males breed with multiple females and low status males have none. In most societies today marriage is 1:1, though there is lots of cheating but in general it means that some women will breed with low status males just for someone - thus all genes get carried on. As I said I assume the powerful selected politically powerful mates…

There is a negative correlation between IQ and fertility.

I haven't seen the science so I might be wrong, but from what I can tell this is correlation not causation. Which is to say intelligent people [in modern times] are less likely to have kids (birth control) and not that intelligent people are less likely to be able to have kids if they want to.

Re: Over 90% of Indian techies in the US are upper-caste Indians

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Post by legolas2412 » Wed, Sep 23, 2020, 2:07 PM UTC

srean wrote: post #605

legolas2412 wrote: post #494

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you Indian american? Because generally people know what surnames fall in whatever caste. People, mostly of our parents generation, know and remember thousands of surnames and associated caste.

As a Bengali I can assure me there are many like me from Bengal who don't. Bengal for whatever reasons seemed to have solved this way better than other states.

I don't either. You'll have to get a better sample representing bengali villages and older people to conclude that casteism is dead.

Re: Over 90% of Indian techies in the US are upper-caste Indians

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Post by thewhitetulip » Wed, Sep 23, 2020, 2:10 PM UTC

srean wrote: post #602

thewhitetulip wrote: post #554

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My brother living in his hamlet has no electricity after 8pm, has 0 access to coaching and has little to no access to books or anything related. This is circa 2000s though. The village has affluent upper caste people while the lower caste people still do menial jobs Reservations are meant for them. But the city folk who have the most knowledge and access to money abuse this system while real poor lower class people a…

There is also the effect of first generation learners. Many don't have the benefit of parents and family with a background in education who can mentor. That's quite a big deal.

I can attest to that personally. I am reasonably intelligent yet I absolutely flunked by IIT exams because of 0 guidance.

None of my family knew what IIT was and for some reason they chose not to send me to a big city for a decent coaching class

Re: Over 90% of Indian techies in the US are upper-caste Indians

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Post by _v7gu » Wed, Sep 23, 2020, 2:25 PM UTC

MisterBastahrd wrote: post #329

tomp wrote: post #295

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nobody argues that tech is a meritocracy. Meritocracy is just an ideal, just like freedom, equality and defensive driving; it’s worth striving towards but you cannot ever reach it (and if you think you’ve reached it, you’ll inevitably start falling behind). Having said that, it’s one of the most meritocratic industries; do you know any billionaire doctors or lawyers that are college dropouts?

Rand Paul does not have a bachelor's degree. He does have an MD. And is a US Senator. Wonder how that happened. Oh, right, meritocracy.

Wikipedia claims that Duke simply didn't require undergraduate degrees for admission at the time.

Re: Over 90% of Indian techies in the US are upper-caste Indians

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Post by mrep » Wed, Sep 23, 2020, 2:33 PM UTC

Loughla wrote: post #341

dudul wrote: post #291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wouldn't say it sounds "exactly" like they are the same. At least in theory, your income reflects your work and is not set for life, while a "caste system" is usually unescapable. And yes, of course being born in a wealthy family gives you privileges but I don't see anything wrong with people working hard to provide for their descendants. I understand that it breaks down in practice where wealth attracts wealth, bu…

I absolutely would call them the same. What is different in a caste system you are born into that provides privilege for some, but lack of resources to another and a class system that provides wealth and privilege for some, but lack of resources beginning at birth for others? When education from an early age is funded via property taxes (as much of the US is), we are baking in the inequality. If you come from a wealt…

What people are in this 'in-group' you speak of because evidently I'm not in it because nobody questions me in a class sort of way about sports, hobbies, my plain t-shirts, shorts and sandals, my subaru car or anything of that sort. My internships admittedly weren't unpaid but that is generally for poorly paying careers anyways and I'm a highly paid software engineer nor did I get my job through connections of any sort, just went to your standard midwest public state school, applied online and even wore a hockey jersey to my interview.

I mean, I'm sure they are some people coasting through life on their parents money and connections for like the 0.1% but it definitely doesn't seem like there is an overt class system for the average person here to me.