Over 90% of Indian techies in the US are upper-caste Indians • Hacker News Board

Re: Over 90% of Indian techies in the US are upper-caste Indians

#601

Post by srean » Wed, Sep 23, 2020, 12:34 PM UTC

kushan2020 wrote: post #532

furyroad wrote: post #527

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> The problem is that a caste-based reservation did NOT eliminate caste-based bias. It is not the goal of the reservation system to eliminate caste-based bias. The goal is to eliminate unfair competition by ensuring candidates of equal backgrounds compete with each other. A low caste candidate who was historically denied education can not compete with a higher caste student from an educated family. Hence the candida…

> This is roughly comparable to the weight divisions in boxing. The divisions exist because it is unfair to let a lightweight boxer fight a heavyweight fighter. In your example if the son of a lightweight boxer happens to be a heavy weight boxer he will not be made to fight with a lightweight boxer right? The idea of reservation in its current form sounds great when talking about a generation or two, but it starts to…

> The idea of reservation in its current form sounds great when talking about a generation or two, but it starts to show its deficiencies in the long term.

As some who opposes the typical right-wing opposition to caste based reservations (aka left wing nut), I agree with your point of view.

For example, I would be fine with constituting a one time generous fund that qualified people can withdraw from (and invest), if care is taken to cover all those who should benefit from such a scheme. Its then up to the families to use the funds as they wish. There is also the notion of giving someone a fish and teaching someone how to fish. A financial fund targets the former and will not be enough, more lenient admissions but something that does not persist forever, seems a reasonable balance.

An eternally persistent reservation is tilted the other way. One can definitely argue about the details of how persistent the terms of the benefits should be, but all I will say lack of consensus on what the decay factor should look like should not come in the way of implementing something that is better than nothing, or terminating something that is better than nothing.

A common argument I see often is caste is not the problem, that poverty is the problem and reservations should target poverty alone and ignore caste. I disagree with this sentiment and consider poverty uplifting an important but orthogonal problem.

Caste reservation is about reparations/compensation for historical damages that has(d) that had been inflicted over centuries.

Kashmiri pandit's losses will not get addressed/compensated by social schemes for the poor. It has to address the issue the forceful, unlawful eviction from their home.

Re: Over 90% of Indian techies in the US are upper-caste Indians

#602

Post by srean » Wed, Sep 23, 2020, 12:36 PM UTC

thewhitetulip wrote: post #554

ascat wrote: post #551

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How the empty seats of SC/ST in the IITS reflect that they are disadvantaged? They have much less cut off, many SC/ST give the exam, their fees is much much less than the general category, they get scholarships. How are they disadvantaged ?

My brother living in his hamlet has no electricity after 8pm, has 0 access to coaching and has little to no access to books or anything related. This is circa 2000s though. The village has affluent upper caste people while the lower caste people still do menial jobs Reservations are meant for them. But the city folk who have the most knowledge and access to money abuse this system while real poor lower class people a…

There is also the effect of first generation learners. Many don't have the benefit of parents and family with a background in education who can mentor. That's quite a big deal.

Re: Over 90% of Indian techies in the US are upper-caste Indians

#603

Post by pkphilip » Wed, Sep 23, 2020, 12:36 PM UTC

screye wrote: post #282

lowend wrote: post #214

ITT: (Possibly) "Upper caste" Indians claiming: 1. This is due to a few bad apples 2. Reservation is the real problem (no it's not) 3. I don't do it therefore it doesn't exist I can tell you by experience the amount of concious and unconcious bias regarding caste amongst Indians both in India and abroad is ridiculous! I'm light skinned so people assume I'm "upper caste" and speak with me as such. My last name doesn't…

I am not from an upper caste either, but my experience doesn't match with yours at all. My peer group is less culturally Indian than others, but I wonder if experiences such as yours are more pronounced in certain regions or groups, more than others. I have never once been asked my caste, and I have never once seen my friends be asked their castes. But, I realize that being middle class in an Indian metro city alread…

In TN they even demanded wrist bands for students to identify their caste...in 2019 at the school level. This was abolished after a lot of opposition.

https://www.edexlive.com/news/2019/aug/18/caste-in-stone-why...

Re: Over 90% of Indian techies in the US are upper-caste Indians

#604

Post by srean » Wed, Sep 23, 2020, 12:40 PM UTC

wishinghand wrote: post #502

NavinF wrote: post #481

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a 24yo Indian guy living in the US, I find this comment very confusing. How do I even find out what "caste" I'm in? I've literally never heard that word used in a conversation with other Indian people ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Perhaps it's a sign of being sheltered. Kind of like white people in the USA not knowing of their privilege.

No, that might not be the case.

Caste based discrimination varies by state. It is far less of a deal in Bengal, for example. This is one reason you will see that caste based identity politics is not used in Bengal, whereas that is the thing TM in other states. If the data were available I would be very curious how it varies state by state.

Re: Over 90% of Indian techies in the US are upper-caste Indians

#605

Post by srean » Wed, Sep 23, 2020, 12:42 PM UTC

legolas2412 wrote: post #494

NavinF wrote: post #481

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a 24yo Indian guy living in the US, I find this comment very confusing. How do I even find out what "caste" I'm in? I've literally never heard that word used in a conversation with other Indian people ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Are you Indian american? Because generally people know what surnames fall in whatever caste. People, mostly of our parents generation, know and remember thousands of surnames and associated caste.

As a Bengali I can assure me there are many like me from Bengal who don't. Bengal for whatever reasons seemed to have solved this way better than other states.

Re: Over 90% of Indian techies in the US are upper-caste Indians

#606

Post by srean » Wed, Sep 23, 2020, 12:46 PM UTC

jlawson wrote: post #552

tassl wrote: post #461

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a false analogy. Genetics can beat training but discrimination cannot be overcome without intervention. I'm a strong believer in equality of opportunities, but I feel that's constantly misunderstood. If your family can pay you a tutor, you're given more opportunities. If you don't have to work after school, you're given more opportunities. If your family is educated and can give you guidance, you're given more…

>discrimination cannot be overcome without intervention There have been many people in history who have overcome discrimination without intervention, so this can't be true. Just because it's harder doesn't mean it's impossible. Did you mean to say something more specific?

I think its quite clear what he/she meant. You are trying to draw him into a debate that I cannot accept to be clean in good faith.

That there are a few can pull it off is not relevant when the scale we are talking about is India's population.

Why not the state bankrupt you of all possessions. Its not impossible to rise up from such a situation. It has been done before.

Re: Over 90% of Indian techies in the US are upper-caste Indians

#607

Post by strikelaserclaw » Wed, Sep 23, 2020, 12:49 PM UTC

ves wrote: post #570

strikelaserclaw wrote: post #522

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unfortunately, some immigrant parents indoctrinate their children in the ways of the old world. I've had many american born Muslim friends growing up, some of them were self professed atheists, but one thing I've never seen any of them do is eat pork. I believe it is because from a young age if you are made to believe that pork is disgusting, unhygienic etc... You develop a reflex that cannot be overcome. It is proba…

Well, hold on. I’m indian american, I and my parents are lifelong atheists, our families are supposed to be vegetarians by caste and tradition and whatever but we’re not, but! though I eat chicken and fish and so on, I won’t eat beef, not because I feel “indoctrinated” or because I have an insurmountable reflex (I’ve eaten beef voluntarily on a few occasions, but that was mostly to avoid causing a scene). Notwithstan…

I never generalized second gen Indian Americans, i merely said some, keyword is some, immigrant parents indoctrinate their children with old world philosophy and indoctrination works, it doesn't matter where you were born, if your parents (and extended family) beat certain ideas into your head through repetition and you do not either have the wisdom/experience to understand right and wrong for yourself, you can and will be indoctrinated.

Re: Over 90% of Indian techies in the US are upper-caste Indians

#608

Post by jrochkind1 » Wed, Sep 23, 2020, 12:51 PM UTC

monoideism wrote: post #598

jrochkind1 wrote: post #486

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The lack of self awareness... They often think of themselves as having come from humble backgrounds and 'made it' in society all on their own... live in their own bubble not even realizing the privilege they are born with. So... pretty much like most Americans in similar situation, then?

> So... pretty much like most Americans in similar situation, then? Does that include almost all Americans, regardless of race? Because compared to most of the rest of the world, we're obviously and measurably privileged wrt materials assets, regardless of race[1]. 1. With respect to material assets. With respect to other assets (spiritual, social, etc), I would argue that we Americans are often in the lower tiers.

I would say yes, although in varying degrees and different qualities depending, some definitely have it worse than others, and that's not regardless of social position (for which race is a quite good correlation in the US because of our history of white supremacy, but is not the same thing).

But I guess we're talking about a couple things. The original topic was like "thinking you 'made it' all on your own." Then there's "feeling you are struggling hard and haven't 'made it' at all, when it could be a lot lot worse for many people on the planet." Seldom does "it's even worse for others" make someone struggling feel better though.

People compare their lot to their neighbors who they can see and come into contact with (even if via media), which is also human nature.

Mainly though, for this whole discussion on the OP, my thinking is -- people are sometimes talking as if Indians are so different than Americans with regard to prejudice about caste or in this case those who have 'made it' not realizing they pretty much just stayed in the social position they were born into -- when seems to me pretty similar. It's maybe easier to see when looking from the outside in than when looking at your own culture.

Re: Over 90% of Indian techies in the US are upper-caste Indians

#609

Post by srean » Wed, Sep 23, 2020, 12:58 PM UTC

notacoward wrote: post #133

_jgdh wrote: post #80

For people who discuss this with Indian co-workers - don't be surprised if they find this bizarre or far fetched. For most upper caste folks, it appears as if the caste system doesn't exist because they've never been at the receiving end of it. Most people (me included) would be tempted to say - I've never discriminated, I've never seen it happen in front of me, I'm confident none of my friends would do it so therefo…

Everything you say rings very true to me. Most Indians are very reluctant to talk about this. Of several that became friends when I worked with a team in BLR, only one became close enough that we could discuss it. He himself was from one of the very highest sub-castes (which he taught me was trivially knowable from his surname) but very enlightened. I was shocked to discover that all but two or three out of about fif…

Good that you were able to have such a conversation. I would request you not to generalize from one example though.

Different states in India differ in matters of caste substantially. In Bengal its mostly a non-issue, more so in metropolitan areas. Some from grand-parent generations might still give caste a thought, but for the rest I can bet that thoughts of caste rarely if at all cone to their mind.

To cement this idea with a concrete example, the Brahmin's that you heard about are supposed to wear this holy thread. Its supposed to be treated with great respect. There are procedures to ensure that the thread, for example, does not get offended when you take a pee break -- you get the idea. So in Bengal, in my dorm, I have seen them used to hang mosquito nets to tying leaky taps. Its just a f'ing piece of thread that someone's grandparent gets upset over if the person doesn't wear it, so the person wears it but treats it nothing more than just a thread that happened to be around.

Totally unrelated, I do hope that you start programming for the fun of it, just as much I hope that for myself.

Re: Over 90% of Indian techies in the US are upper-caste Indians

#610

Post by buran77 » Wed, Sep 23, 2020, 1:05 PM UTC

monoideism wrote: post #597

buran77 wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are succeeding because the historical cultural norms keep the "competition" down, and because they have money. Everything else is a consequence, not a cause. Take 2 equally educated people from high and low castes and see how they behave next to each other and how they're treated doing the same jobs. One will be treated like a "natural born leader", the other like a "born to be a slave". That's because as much e…

> When the other person is just as educated, or smart, or capable, or sometimes they may be even better, you pull out this card which is by definition impossible to fight. You can't reasonably change them. So some people will keep working to make these still "a thing", something they can always use to get an edge they don't deserve. This could also be a 100% accurate description of affirmative action.

Of course at first sight "affirmative action" has a similar effect and taken to the extreme it can have just as many negative consequences. But it also depends on how narrow your view of what's happening is, how far you "zoom in". The intention of reasonable affirmative action is vastly different and yes, that matters.

If you take a narrow enough view, a criminal being locked up is no different from a person being kidnapped. Someone is deprived of liberty. A criminal taking money from the victim is no different from a victim taking back money from the criminal. Someone is taking money from someone else. If you take a step back you see a different story.

To the point, if you got a job purely based on such advantages as gender or skin color, then the fact that it's taken away via affirmative action is not as much discrimination as it is fixing an error. The devil's in the details.