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Apple ordered to not block Epic’s Unreal Engine, Fortnite to stay off App Store

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Re: Apple ordered to not block Epic’s Unreal Engine, Fortnite to stay off App Store

#511

Post by marcel-garus »

spott wrote: post #500
shados wrote: post #475

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the Court doubts that an expert would suggest a zero percent alternative It's unfortunate that the percentage cut ends up overshadowing the real antitrust issue, which is that Apple (and Google) essentially has the power to make or break any arbitrary business that relies on their platform. They base it on vague and loosely enforced rules, which means companies never know if tomorrow is the end. Having a locked pla…

I mean the Microsoft Store charges 30% for games, Google play is 30%, Steam is 30%, I'm sure there are app stores I'm not thinking of that charge 30%. It seems to be the industry standard App Store cut.

The problem is that you can't get your software onto iOS any other way, but you can get programs on Windows without going through the Microsoft Store or Steam and Apps onto Android without going through the Play Store.

Re: Apple ordered to not block Epic’s Unreal Engine, Fortnite to stay off App Store

#512

Post by dkonofalski »

Andrew_nenakhov wrote: post #432
dkonofalski wrote: post #380

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The capabilities that I paid for are what I got. I did not pay for a device that lets me install whatever app or widget I want. I paid for an iPhone knowing exactly what it was and wasn't capable of and I paid for that specifically because I know that Apple doesn't need to dedicate resources to anything other than my device. Taking that away changes the entire ecosystem and all the benefits presented by it. Look at M…

So, will you be happy if the government asks Apple to remove every messenger that allows encryption? That's what users in China get. Also, it's nice that you mention Macs. On Macs, you can install any app bypassing the AppStore. As it should be on a proper computer, and iPhone IS a computer.

I don't understand how that's any different than Google? China has a country-wide firewall too so, even if you have an Android phone, there's no way to get around that without breaking the law.

Also, what happens on a Mac has no bearing on what happens on the iPhone even if I made an analogy using the Mac. I need that type of access on my Mac. If they ever remove that, I'll need to find another option. That's not the case with the iPhone so your point is moot.

Re: Apple ordered to not block Epic’s Unreal Engine, Fortnite to stay off App Store

#513

Post by xsmasher »

banachtarski wrote: post #36
asutekku wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is arguably false. The only license that would’ve been withdrawn was Epic’s. Not a single other developer using UE was targeted directly by Apple.

As someone that works at an Unreal Engine shop, you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.

Can you explain? How was your shop targeted directly by Apple?

Re: Apple ordered to not block Epic’s Unreal Engine, Fortnite to stay off App Store

#514

Post by dkonofalski »

Dahoon wrote: post #460
dkonofalski wrote: post #368

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They probably should have thought about that before they purposely violated their developer agreements...

One can agree with one side or the other but this is nothing short of Apple using its dominant position to try and hurt Epic because they got mad. It has nothing to do with kicking someone out for breach of the app store rules. Fortnight and Epic's Unreal engine are two entirely different legal entities. As you could have read in the ruling.

And, as you could have read in the ruling, Apple didn't do anything to the other developer account. They merely sent an email response saying that continued action on Epic's part could result in them terminating their contracts and support. So, you're wrong. It has 100% everything to do with kicking someone out for breach of the App Store rules.

Re: Apple ordered to not block Epic’s Unreal Engine, Fortnite to stay off App Store

#515

Post by badsectoracula »

Humdeee wrote: post #308
badsectoracula wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why? Because having Apple in control of the device is valuable to me. VERY valuable. It's the big reason why I willingly pay more for Apple phones. You can give Apple initial (and practically temporary if you do not want to take it back) control over the device without actually forcing everyone else to do the same. > I would have simply bought a different product. What if you liked everything Apple does except the…

I want Android to have stricter control of their Apps that are released in their native appstore. I also want the manufacturer to have complete control so much that I never need to have an anti-virus. Scratch all that, I demand it. How come I cannot get this? Wait a second, why is there all this bloatware on my phone after I turned it on for the first time? How do I get rid of it? Is it really gone even though it say…

> I want Android to have stricter control of their Apps that are released in their native appstore.

Google could have this without having Android itself disallow 3rd party applications.

> I also want the manufacturer to have complete control so much that I never need to have an anti-virus. Scratch all that, I demand it. How come I cannot get this?

If you are afraid of viruses on your phone you can avoid that by using only applications from reputable sources (like the aforementioned app store). You do not need to lock down the device for everyone else just because you are afraid.

> Wait a second, why is there all this bloatware on my phone after I turned it on for the first time? How do I get rid of it? Is it really gone even though it says I deleted it? Why do I need to go on a rabbit hunt in deep tech forums to make sure of that?

What does all of this have to do with Android allowing 3rd party applications? All that is up to your device manufacturer.

> Why is everyone saying to "just" root your phone to take control over it?

Because sadly not even Android provides the ability to 100% unlock it out of the box for all devices.

> Why does this tracking feature turn back on after updates? Why do I get the uncertain feeling that this free antivirus program should be run through a separate antivirus program?... etc. x100 other questions I have. I really don't care to have any of them answered, because I have the option not to.

Note that you do not have an option here, the ability to not be able to answer any of those are forced on you by Apple - Apple never gave you any option outside not using their phones, but you cannot both use their phones (because you actually like them) and be able to install 3rd party applications.

> Instead of demanding all this or asking much of these questions, I have the choice to buy an iPhone. I understand the (great) possibilities that I'm giving up in return, and I'm very good with that. I like this choice.

What i refer to in my comments isn't the choice about what sort of device you can buy, what i refer to is being in control of your device after you bought it. Of course you can choose to not buy an Apple device, but after buying it you lose any form of control over your own device.

Re: Apple ordered to not block Epic’s Unreal Engine, Fortnite to stay off App Store

#516

Post by badsectoracula »

wcarey wrote: post #163
badsectoracula wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, i have no such assumptions. Developers can and some may even will (though market forces will push at least one app store to be the dominant - chances are it'll be the one that comes out of the box with the device) focus on a single app store and there is nothing wrong with that. The only wrong part is users not being in control over what they can install on their devices and from where they will install them. Yes…

That seems like a concession that people who currently enjoy the first-party-only app store situation may indeed lose something if third-party-app-stores become a thing. You can argue (as I think you are) that those losses are outweighed by the gains of a more open ecosystem, but to many users they are meaningful losses.

No matter what choice you make, something else will be affected, that doesn't mean you should not be able to have any choice in the first place.

Re: Apple ordered to not block Epic’s Unreal Engine, Fortnite to stay off App Store

#517

Post by dkonofalski »

reissbaker wrote: post #442
dkonofalski wrote: post #370

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, they didn't. They responded to Epic threatening to cease assistance for the 2nd arm of Epic if the Fortnite arm refused to comply. Only 1 account was cancelled.

They literally threatened to cancel the second account. This is what the injunction is about, and the judge ruled that Apple can't cancel the second account and prevent Epic from using Mac tools to legally develop Unreal. You would know this if you read the injunction that is being discussed...

That's not what the judge ruled at all so I'm confused by your statements about reading the injunction. All the judge "ruled" was that Apple needs to maintain the current status quo of their other arrangements until they actually rule on the main cause of the case. If Apple wins, then there's another matter to attend to. If they don't, then the status quo is still maintained and the matter is over. What the judge actually ruled was akin to "You go to that side of the room and you go to the other. Stop hitting each other while I figure out who broke the toy." The judge didn't make any kind of determination on the legality of anything and you can't make a legal judgement on a threat of doing something.

Re: Apple ordered to not block Epic’s Unreal Engine, Fortnite to stay off App Store

#518

Post by Thorentis »

mrich wrote: post #497
Thorentis wrote: post #482

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nobody is forcing Epic to use Apple's platform though. It never used to be the case, that every device you own must be able to play every game you want. You can already play Fortnite on your PC. Apple cannot stop you from owning a PC, so Apple cannot stop you from playing Fortnite. Yes, Apple is a gatekeeper for its platform. But we've known this forever. Sony is a gatekeeper for the playstation, and Microsoft is a g…

At some point the platform has to be considered common infrastructure, similar to power transmission lines, the railroad or the Windows OS. Just because you happened to build a successful platform should not imply that you can hold everyone hostage - that is why antitrust is a thing.

I am on board with the internet being common infrastructure, since you cannot own your own fibre cable that goes to the ISP (at least not easily and cheaply).

With hardware it is different. Nobody forced you to buy an iPhone. Nobody forced you to buy an Android, Windows, Nokia, whatever phone. Same with laptops. If you want an open platform, buy one. If you want an open OS, install one. Don't buy an iPhone, complain about the platform not being open enough for you, and then demand that all platforms be made common infrastructure so that you're absolved of making decisions about the hardware you use.

Re: Apple ordered to not block Epic’s Unreal Engine, Fortnite to stay off App Store

#519

Post by anoncake »

sifar wrote: post #180
theklr wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Umm. You choose to live in that walled garden or not, so if I choose to have “that choice” taken away from me, that’s still choice.

>> I choose to have “that choice” taken away from me, that’s still choice This is a great example of Orwellian doublethink.

It's Stockholm syndrome.

Re: Apple ordered to not block Epic’s Unreal Engine, Fortnite to stay off App Store

#520

Post by anoncake »

theklr wrote: post #139
anoncake wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Would you allow people to load software of their choice for their automobiles? Obviously yes. > Smart TVs usually are limited by their OS and encumbered by licensing that locks down what can be loaded. This mostly is because of decoding legalities It's because of DRM. Nothing here benefits the customer. > Who becomes liable if your privacy, assets, or even the device, are compromised because you were able to load s…

Umm. You choose to live in that walled garden or not, so if I choose to have “that choice” taken away from me, that’s still choice.

You would have a point if Apple offered the choice between locking your device to their services or using it as you see fit. They don't.
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