Apple ordered to not block Epic’s Unreal Engine, Fortnite to stay off App Store • Hacker News Board

Re: Apple ordered to not block Epic’s Unreal Engine, Fortnite to stay off App Store

#301

Post by dkonofalski » Tue, Aug 25, 2020, 4:20 PM UTC

klmadfejno wrote: post #94

jeremy_wiebe wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn’t that an issue Epic has brought in themselves? Their “Fortnight division” has put at risk their “Unreal Engine division”. Or put another way, they have two products at different levels of the stack and they have consciously chosen to risk one (the game) to leverage all their customer’s of their other product (Unreal Engine) onto their side in this war.

That's what the judge is ruling is not allowed. There's no basis for it. Apple can't go after an unrelated business because it's having a temper tantrum and feeling spiteful. The fact that fortnite is built on UE doesn't have any significance here.

They're not going after "unrelated business", though. They cancelled Epic's developer account which is exactly the remediation listed in the agreement for the account. If you violate the terms, your account is suspended. Epic brought this on themselves when they made their move without thinking about how that would affect the rest of their business.

Re: Apple ordered to not block Epic’s Unreal Engine, Fortnite to stay off App Store

#302

Post by dragonwriter » Tue, Aug 25, 2020, 4:20 PM UTC

newacct583 wrote: post #295

1MoreThing wrote: post #280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What exactly is sane about figuring out how to make 200,000 contractors full-time employees inside of a week? I don't think there's a company in the world that could pull that off. If a company says, "hey, we're a marketplace" and a court says, "actually, you're not" then the company has to figure out how to adapt. There's change and an emotional toll to the drivers in that scenario whether they become employees or n…

> inside of a week California Assembly Bill 5 was signed into law last September and was clearly a "Going to Happen" event for at least a year prior. There's no surprise here. Uber had plenty of time to figure out how to deal with this. And they did: they aren't dummies, this was their plan. Their considered decision was that it was in the best interests of their shareholders to play brinksmanship games with their em…

> California Assembly Bill 5 was signed into law last September and was clearly a "Going to Happen" event for at least a year prior.

And, on top of that, merely (as relevant to Uber and Lyft; it also added some exceptions that aren't relevant to them) codified the rule the California Supreme Court handed down in Dynamex on April 30, 2018; so the “one week” is off by about 121 weeks or so.

Re: Apple ordered to not block Epic’s Unreal Engine, Fortnite to stay off App Store

#303

Post by uberduper » Tue, Aug 25, 2020, 4:21 PM UTC

IvanK_net wrote: post #20

I still wonder why so many people buy devices, where the only software you could run has to be approved by the manufacturer. I think we should speak more about this fact, so that people think twice before they buy some device. I only make websites, but I am worried, that at some point, Apple would want me to pay them, so that my website is openable on their devices.

Can you really be a HN reader and continue to feign ignorance on this point? Go read the comments on any article that mentions Apple (like this one) and you will see the pros and cons repeated 10s of times. You understand full well, you just don't agree. That's fine, but not really worthy of discussion anymore.

Re: Apple ordered to not block Epic’s Unreal Engine, Fortnite to stay off App Store

#304

Post by kevin_thibedeau » Tue, Aug 25, 2020, 4:23 PM UTC

Gorbzel wrote: post #273

yupyup54133 wrote: post #262

I'm confused. Why doesn't Apple just use their "Termination for Convenience" clause that lets them terminate any contract with a 30 day notice?

B/c in that case Apple would be doing what the haters erroneously claim they do now: making 100% arbitrary/capricious decisions when it comes to the App Store walled garden. As those of us who target iOS know, they're not transparent, but it's not arbitrary. Thank god. We'd never hear the end of unsolicited opinions about the Touch Bar and HN's annual subscription to the year of desktop Linux.

> but it's not arbitrary

Then why does Amazon get a special deal?

Re: Apple ordered to not block Epic’s Unreal Engine, Fortnite to stay off App Store

#305

Post by meowface » Tue, Aug 25, 2020, 4:24 PM UTC

dawnerd wrote: post #297

echelon wrote: post #286

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Per item 1, now would be a good time for every single developer on the app store to revolt in unison. Collective bargaining.

and for every dev that left you'd have a shady one step in the fill the void.

"Apple: Think Moloch"

Re: Apple ordered to not block Epic’s Unreal Engine, Fortnite to stay off App Store

#306

Post by dragonwriter » Tue, Aug 25, 2020, 4:24 PM UTC

1MoreThing wrote: post #280

paulmd wrote: post #276

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Now if only the courts would apply the same "sanity" to, say, Uber threatening to fire all its drivers if they're subject to regulation. Not just in california, it's been a repeated thing, they used their employees as leverage when they were threatening to take their ball and go home if Dallas made them do background checks too. The sad part is that Epic's tactics are nothing out of the ordinary for these silicon val…

What exactly is sane about figuring out how to make 200,000 contractors full-time employees inside of a week? I don't think there's a company in the world that could pull that off. If a company says, "hey, we're a marketplace" and a court says, "actually, you're not" then the company has to figure out how to adapt. There's change and an emotional toll to the drivers in that scenario whether they become employees or n…

> What exactly is sane about figuring out how to make 200,000 contractors full-time employees

There is no requirement for them to be made full-time employees, just employees, and even if the law was unclear before the Dynamex decision, they've had the requirement under that decision for almost 2.5 years. And they've known about it, because they've been actively lobbying to change it, lobbying for Dynamex to be legislatively reversed, lobbying for an exception when it was clear that instead of reversing it the legislature planned to codify it in AB5 and also lobbying against AB5, and finally funding a ballot referendum to repeal AB5. All of that says that they understood the rule, and how it applied to them, for quite a long time.

Re: Apple ordered to not block Epic’s Unreal Engine, Fortnite to stay off App Store

#307

Post by scarface74 » Tue, Aug 25, 2020, 4:27 PM UTC

dawnerd wrote: post #297

echelon wrote: post #286

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Per item 1, now would be a good time for every single developer on the app store to revolt in unison. Collective bargaining.

and for every dev that left you'd have a shady one step in the fill the void.

You mean like all of the shady developers who are already in the App Store selling in app purchases for loot boxes, useless virtual currency and play to win games?

I’m surprised (not really) that people are defending Epic but would never defend King (Candy Crush) or the makers of FarmVille.

I would much rather see BaseCamp (Hey) or the company that was selling virtual workouts with real trainers take them to court. If Apple was really about protecting users and cared about the quality of the App Store they would prohibit in app purchases for games with consumables.

Re: Apple ordered to not block Epic’s Unreal Engine, Fortnite to stay off App Store

#308

Post by Humdeee » Tue, Aug 25, 2020, 4:28 PM UTC

badsectoracula wrote: post #153

sjwright wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why? Because having Apple in control of the device is valuable to me. VERY valuable. It's the big reason why I willingly pay more for Apple phones. If I wanted control over my phone, I don't need to "demand" it. I would have simply bought a different product. Meanwhile, I already have plenty of devices that I have control over. That's like asking why not insist that your Tesla Model 3 has a diesel engine, a manual tr…

> Why? Because having Apple in control of the device is valuable to me. VERY valuable. It's the big reason why I willingly pay more for Apple phones. You can give Apple initial (and practically temporary if you do not want to take it back) control over the device without actually forcing everyone else to do the same. > I would have simply bought a different product. What if you liked everything Apple does except the…

I want Android to have stricter control of their Apps that are released in their native appstore. I also want the manufacturer to have complete control so much that I never need to have an anti-virus. Scratch all that, I demand it. How come I cannot get this?

Wait a second, why is there all this bloatware on my phone after I turned it on for the first time? How do I get rid of it? Is it really gone even though it says I deleted it? Why do I need to go on a rabbit hunt in deep tech forums to make sure of that? Why is everyone saying to "just" root your phone to take control over it? Why does this tracking feature turn back on after updates? Why do I get the uncertain feeling that this free antivirus program should be run through a separate antivirus program?... etc. x100 other questions I have. I really don't care to have any of them answered, because I have the option not to.

Instead of demanding all this or asking much of these questions, I have the choice to buy an iPhone. I understand the (great) possibilities that I'm giving up in return, and I'm very good with that. I like this choice. I buy an iPhone for what it can't do. This next sentence sums it all up: it's important to understand that an Android can't do what an iPhone by purposeful design can't do.

Re: Apple ordered to not block Epic’s Unreal Engine, Fortnite to stay off App Store

#309

Post by parasubvert » Tue, Aug 25, 2020, 4:29 PM UTC

wvenable wrote: post #294

Bender_Donaghy wrote: post #289

Change My Mind - I currently agree with Apple's strategy with blocking Unreal Engine. Why is it that a big company (like Epic) thinks it's no longer subject to the Apple Tax while us small guys thrive with the platform for which we wouldn't have the audience/opportuity without Apple. Are we all subject to the same cycle if we "make it", we'll buck against the 30% cut and bite the hand that fed us. This is bad busines…

> We wouldn't have the audience/opportuity without Apple Is that worth 30% till the end of time? Your argument is like crabs in a bucket -- one crab tries to get a better deal and you pull him down because you have to pay. Lets say, somehow, Epic manages to get that fee lowered to something more reasonable for everyone. Would you not be happy with that?

This is the crux of the matter: is it anticompetitive to setup an ecosystem where you always get a cut?

Generally, historically, no, this is not anticompetitive, especially given there is another ecosystem with far more market share (but maybe not profitability because more people spend money on iOS apps). Inserting yourself to take a cut for a service or a key component is good business practice, and built the empires that every student in business school or in tech entrepreneurship is taught to emulate. So long as the wealth pie grows, it isn’t rent seeking to keep taking your cut.

What amazes me is that people think iOS and Apple (and even Android and Google) are near-permanent fixtures that should be regulated as utilities, rather than a temporary incumbent that will eventually be disrupted as the world changes.

Microsoft’s reign of dictating terms to ISVs a lasted around 20 years. They’re still incredibly profitable and still take a cut of almost every PC sale (or XBox game / movie / tv show sale). They don’t have the clout they used to because the tech changed.

At some point, new things will come, such as AR/VR, and we may see companies such as Valve and Oculus/Facebook become the new tech ecosystem dictators. The winner takes all dynamics of platforms seem to make this inevitable. Why enshrine Apple and Google as utilities now, when they’ll be less relevant in 10 years?

Re: Apple ordered to not block Epic’s Unreal Engine, Fortnite to stay off App Store

#310

Post by simion314 » Tue, Aug 25, 2020, 4:29 PM UTC

wcarey wrote: post #213

simion314 wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is your gym app not available on Google store but only as a side load? Because you are imagining that because soem developers are shit then all are shit. When I was young I could create small apps and games and share with my friends. But the future seems to be "think at the idiots that might side load malware" so our children will need to create developers accounts, provide IDs , buy certificates just to develop and…

Broadly gym subscriptions aren't handled through apps. I'm assuming that there will be a tragedy of the commons, something Apple has only been moderately effective at preventing, that will reduce the quality of terms-of-service for users. I too used to create small apps and games and share them with my friends. I still do that on a headless raspberry pi, which is a vastly superior environment than the one I had acces…

Now imagine my son making a small game and wants to share it with his cousin but now the cousin needs to run Linux to run code not approved by a corporation.(you need to not forget people that might not be rich and can afford many different devices).

Anyway do you have any examples (more then 1) of companies that ONLY offer side loading because they are evil and want to trick the customer (with subscriptions or to steal data).