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Apple ordered to not block Epic’s Unreal Engine, Fortnite to stay off App Store

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Re: Apple ordered to not block Epic’s Unreal Engine, Fortnite to stay off App Store

#271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was hinting at the possibility of having a platform where there is no central app store to even allow such "dynamics" to unfold. > I'm not sure what you want to say here That the Apple platform with the store model has significant disadvantages.

Ok, but do we agree that Epic getting what they want would result in a more open platform than what we currently have? Because the alternative to what Epic want (so the current situation) isn't a completely open platform but one where Apple is the only boss and can do almost whatever they want. Having more bosses in competition for parts of the market is an improvement toward a more open system.

> Ok, but do we agree that Epic getting what they want would result in a more open platform than what we currently have?

I think Epic getting what they want will slowly hollow out the available market for smaller indie developers who can't compete with with the scale of the big boys. Insofar as Apple's app store falls short, it's often in the various ways it fails at providing a truly even playing field between Joe Random and the Amazons and Epics of the world. Take the Apple intermediation out of it and the big stores can bring the strength of their reputations and the scale of their logistical capabilities to bear in ways that will make it much more difficult for small, independent developers to thrive.

You can see it in comparing the iOS app economy to the Android one. Even though the vast majority of app installs in Android come through the Play store, the more lax standards and availability of sideloading seems to make people much less trustful of anything they get and, consequently, much less likely to spend any money.

Re: Apple ordered to not block Epic’s Unreal Engine, Fortnite to stay off App Store

#272
post #254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think what you’d see is not much in the way of price decreases or increased availability of apps, but more dark patterns, malware, and anti-privacy measures. Apple basically collectively bargains for iPhone users via the App Store. Privacy features, sign-in with Apple, limiting tracking abuse, privacy “Nutrition Facts” and other items will go out the window. Apple will have those in their App Store, but users will…

Apple can still enforce privacy measures at the OS level.

There's more to shitty app behavior than just hardware-dependent data like location, and some of the enforcement can't really be done in software. Especially when it comes to workarounds/exploiting private APIs. Right now Apple can yank an app pretty much immediately if it's found to be doing that; if the app were in an alternate App Store, a much slower OS update would be Apple's only option.

Payments also come to mind: Apple has strict standards for what you have to explain to users before you take their money. (Granted they're not always perfectly enforced.) And some of the terms (like easy, clear cancellation) are enforced simply by the fact that you must use Apple's payment system. With another App Store, that goes out the window.

Re: Apple ordered to not block Epic’s Unreal Engine, Fortnite to stay off App Store

#273

I'm confused. Why doesn't Apple just use their "Termination for Convenience" clause that lets them terminate any contract with a 30 day notice?

B/c in that case Apple would be doing what the haters erroneously claim they do now: making 100% arbitrary/capricious decisions when it comes to the App Store walled garden.

As those of us who target iOS know, they're not transparent, but it's not arbitrary. Thank god. We'd never hear the end of unsolicited opinions about the Touch Bar and HN's annual subscription to the year of desktop Linux.

Re: Apple ordered to not block Epic’s Unreal Engine, Fortnite to stay off App Store

#274
post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a chain of events. If Epic can't develop on iOS or MacOS, they can't continue to work on Unreal, which makes it effectively an abandoned product for others. Yes, they can still use it, but it would be basically EOL. That was the point in threatening to revoke Epic's license to develop on the platform, and the danger in the increasing monoculture inside Apple. You can only use these specific ordained tools, and t…

I don’t disagree with you, but again, they are not taking away anyone’s license apart from Epic’s . This is a fact, and there is no way around it. Taking away Epic’s license will have effects on other developers, but this is not the same as revoking their licenses. The OP was not about a constructive discussion of the consequences of that, it was about Apple going after other developers. Which is factually wrong.

Taking away and revoking are the same. The legal work is revoke, they're revoking Epic's license to use MacOS and iOS development tools. That was beyond the scope of the violation, which was an App Store rule violation. The goal of that move was to prevent Epic from even developing non-App Store content, which I don't think anyone could not foresee it affecting other developers, which I'm fairly sure was the intent. I think they overstepped their contractual recourse for the intent of trying to force epic back to the table, because Epic wouldn't want to lose all their iOS customers.

Re: Apple ordered to not block Epic’s Unreal Engine, Fortnite to stay off App Store

#275
post #168
post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The bargaining is between users and developers. Developers have increasingly taken adversarial positions with their users, who have accepted increasingly onerous terms and privacy policies because individual users are not in a good bargaining position. Apple, in contrast, is in a bargaining position to negotiate terms of use on behalf of its users with developers. For example, if I purchase a subscription to a langua…

> Developers have increasingly taken adversarial positions with their users And who do we have to thank for that turn? Apple's culture that "we know better" is a good part of that problem. Developers want to be Apple , and Apple is pretty abusive towards their users. They take the occasional pro-user stance where it suits them, but overall it's pretty clear that the only institutional interest for Apple is Apple's ow…

> And who do we have to thank for that turn? Apple's culture that "we know better" is a good part of that problem.

This culture did not start at Apple. It has been predominant tech culture since at least the early 2000s and is absolutely pervasive in the Linux Desktop community.

Re: Apple ordered to not block Epic’s Unreal Engine, Fortnite to stay off App Store

#276

A victory for sanity. Apple threatening developmental licenses and anyone who used the Unreal Engine was nothing short of mafia-esque, and just as obviously Fortnite being restored to the app store is a matter for Epic's lawsuit against apple.

Now if only the courts would apply the same "sanity" to, say, Uber threatening to fire all its drivers if they're subject to regulation. Not just in california, it's been a repeated thing, they used their employees as leverage when they were threatening to take their ball and go home if Dallas made them do background checks too.

The sad part is that Epic's tactics are nothing out of the ordinary for these silicon valley giants, they love using innocent parties as emotional leverage in a fight to pad their profit margins by another couple percent.

Re: Apple ordered to not block Epic’s Unreal Engine, Fortnite to stay off App Store

#277
post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I guess this is the .1%? No. > You don’t buy something expecting it to do something completely different. You don’t buy an iPhone expecting to install whatever you want. You don’t buy a Corolla expecting to off-road with it. Apple's current behavior isn't written in stone and dictated by God, it can change.

It is sad they don't have rooted developer phones available. I'd switch platforms in a second if they started allowing me root on my own device.

Root access used to be a concern for me, but it became much less useful when Xposed had to enter the cat-and-mouse game against SafetyNet. And now that unlocked bootloaders can't be hidden from SafetyNet, I don't even bother with root. And because of that I've been considering just switching to the next iPhone and going all in on Apple's ecosystem.

Re: Apple ordered to not block Epic’s Unreal Engine, Fortnite to stay off App Store

#279

I'm confused. Why doesn't Apple just use their "Termination for Convenience" clause that lets them terminate any contract with a 30 day notice?

The reason is in the document, simply, because while the case is ongoing the judge wants to decrease, not increase, the difficulty in calculating damages.

Re: Apple ordered to not block Epic’s Unreal Engine, Fortnite to stay off App Store

#280
post #276

A victory for sanity. Apple threatening developmental licenses and anyone who used the Unreal Engine was nothing short of mafia-esque, and just as obviously Fortnite being restored to the app store is a matter for Epic's lawsuit against apple.

Now if only the courts would apply the same "sanity" to, say, Uber threatening to fire all its drivers if they're subject to regulation. Not just in california, it's been a repeated thing, they used their employees as leverage when they were threatening to take their ball and go home if Dallas made them do background checks too. The sad part is that Epic's tactics are nothing out of the ordinary for these silicon val…

What exactly is sane about figuring out how to make 200,000 contractors full-time employees inside of a week? I don't think there's a company in the world that could pull that off.

If a company says, "hey, we're a marketplace" and a court says, "actually, you're not" then the company has to figure out how to adapt. There's change and an emotional toll to the drivers in that scenario whether they become employees or not.

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