Apple removes Fortnite from App Store after Epic attempts to bypass fees • Hacker News Board

Re: Apple removes Fortnite from App Store after Epic attempts to bypass fees

#411

Post by ctvo » Thu, Aug 13, 2020, 9:52 PM UTC

valuearb wrote: post #165

shajznnckfke wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m a huge fan of Apple Pay and do not begrudge the 0.15% cut they take on those transactions. The cut they take for App Store purchases is over 100x that amount, which is obscene.

Comparing a payment processing fee to hosting content on a store site is completely disingenuous. The costs are wildly little different and it’s unlikely any App Store like Apples could even pay for itself with only a 10% cut, for example..

Do you have access to information the rest of us don't? Apple doesn't release the operational details of its AppStore in its financial disclosures. Shocking you know a 10% fee isn't enough to maintain it.

How about we do what's often suggested: we spin the AppStore off as its own non-profit governing body and they can disclose their operating costs and increase / decrease their fee as needed. The rules then apply equally to Apple vs. non-Apple companies.

Re: Apple removes Fortnite from App Store after Epic attempts to bypass fees

#412

Post by zepto » Thu, Aug 13, 2020, 9:55 PM UTC

dathinab wrote: post #366

smnrchrds wrote: post #160

Discussion of Apple topics here on HN almost always gets reduced to the argument that Apple is not a monopoly, so what they are doing is OK. I want to present an alternative viewpoint. It's not a monopoly issue, it is an anti-competitive issue. In Canada, we have three major cell carriers. None of them has a monopoly, or anything close to it. None of them has even 50% market share. You can have a 10 GB smartphone pla…

> reduced to the argument that Apple is not a monopoly, so what they are doing is OK. Wait, how can what Apple does ever be okay even they legally don't have a monopoly. Apple provides a marketplace (which they name store, but it's a marked place not a store) which is the only way to install software (on their phone) for millions of persons which means it's a marked and not just a marked place and they do both run th…

The usual answer is that people who buy the phones must think it’s ok, otherwise they’d buy a competitor’s phone.

And of course opinions differ on the good and bad aspects of their policies.

It’s not like all the competitors who are complaining are ‘fair’ in any particular way.

Also, your description fits a department store, or Amazon, or pretty much any other store for that matter.

All store owners get to stock what they want, charge what they want, and give their own products advantages.

If your argument is that no store should be able to do these things, then that seems like a reasonable position to hold.

Perhaps we do need to overhaul the notion of marketplaces and intermediaries in general. That seems like a relevant idea to explore.

The people arguing about monopolies are saying that everyone else should be allowed to do these things, but not Apple because they have too much power.

Re: Apple removes Fortnite from App Store after Epic attempts to bypass fees

#413

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Aug 13, 2020, 9:55 PM UTC

FreakyT wrote: post #4

Really hoping regulators crack down hard on Apple's clearly anticompetitive practices. If Apple allowed sideloading the entire point would be, of course, moot, but Apple's continued refusal to allow this is really the biggest problem, IMO.

[deleted]

Re: Apple removes Fortnite from App Store after Epic attempts to bypass fees

#414

Post by newbie578 » Thu, Aug 13, 2020, 9:56 PM UTC

mmcconnell1618 wrote: post #341

donor20 wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good lord - on HN the monopoly comments are so crazy sometimes. What is the monopoly issue Apple has? Use android if you don't like Apple's product line. Apple is at 22% share.

iPhone has just under 50% in the United States. The 22% share is globally. So in a US court, their would be an argument for monopoly (or duopoly). https://www.statista.com/statistics/266572/market-share-held... .

It's crazy how he won't respond to you know, since people purposely keep saying that Apple is not a monopoly, and when someone shares a stat where Apple has around 50% marketshare, then they just disappear in the ground.

Re: Apple removes Fortnite from App Store after Epic attempts to bypass fees

#415

Post by lern_too_spel » Thu, Aug 13, 2020, 9:58 PM UTC

threatofrain wrote: post #21

FreakyT wrote: post #4

Really hoping regulators crack down hard on Apple's clearly anticompetitive practices. If Apple allowed sideloading the entire point would be, of course, moot, but Apple's continued refusal to allow this is really the biggest problem, IMO.

As a user I'm quite happy with Apple intermediating my relationship with companies that seek to do business with me over the phone, and I'd actually be happier if Apple took over more of my relationships. I don't want a situation where 10 apps means 10 different privacy agreements. I also don't want to deal with app companies directly for returns or their custom payment solutions — an "Amazon" is way better.

What if you want better privacy than what the App Store can provide, like F-Droid? On iOS, you're currently out of luck.

Re: Apple removes Fortnite from App Store after Epic attempts to bypass fees

#416

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Aug 13, 2020, 9:58 PM UTC

akmarinov wrote: post #396

threeseed wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mastercard, Visa etc all take a fee for transactions. There are serious costs involved in running an international payments system. But that's very different from a proper 30% style cut.

They've made about $500 mil off of it in 2018 - https://9to5mac.com/2020/02/12/apple-pay-revenue/ Heading to a billion and beyond in the next couple of years.

[deleted]

Re: Apple removes Fortnite from App Store after Epic attempts to bypass fees

#417

Post by yazaddaruvala » Thu, Aug 13, 2020, 10:02 PM UTC

aaomidi wrote: post #399

yazaddaruvala wrote: post #381

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And there is nothing stopping Epic from releasing Fortnite on the iPhone (in-fact it was there for years). The rules could be unfair[1] but this issue is just Epic not wanting to follow the rules to make some more money. [1] We can discuss what a fair price/percentage should be. Arguably the market and Apple customers have decided 30% is fair, but we can discuss. Meanwhile, side-loading or not charging would make my…

Well the unfair part is what is being discussed. So ignoring that would be ignoring the whole point of this.

My conversation with you was entirely about "the iPhone being a general purpose computer".

It seems we have both settled that either an iPhone is not general purpose, or all consoles, TVs or IOT devices with downloadable content are general purpose devices.

If you'd like we can now start discussing if the price Apple charges is fair.

I've already stated, the market decides to buy iPhones understanding (even appreciating) that the user cannot side-load non-Apple approved apps (other than through a less trusted channel i.e. the browser). As such the market through demand, has decided there is a niche ecosystem where 30% fees for in app purchases are appropriate and fair.

What are your thoughts?

Re: Apple removes Fortnite from App Store after Epic attempts to bypass fees

#418

Post by valuearb » Thu, Aug 13, 2020, 10:05 PM UTC

ctvo wrote: post #411

valuearb wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Comparing a payment processing fee to hosting content on a store site is completely disingenuous. The costs are wildly little different and it’s unlikely any App Store like Apples could even pay for itself with only a 10% cut, for example..

Do you have access to information the rest of us don't? Apple doesn't release the operational details of its AppStore in its financial disclosures. Shocking you know a 10% fee isn't enough to maintain it. How about we do what's often suggested: we spin the AppStore off as its own non-profit governing body and they can disclose their operating costs and increase / decrease their fee as needed. The rules then apply equ…

Apple breaks out a services line in their financial reports. You should read them. Services has a gross margin of around 67-68%, but that includes a $9B check from Google every year with near 100% margins. So the App Store is very likely to be less than 67%, maybe as low as 15%.

It’s not just payment processing. They provide other critically valuable services to developers such as App Review, Hosting, International Distribution, CoMarketing, Store APIs, Security, etc, etc, and they all have thousands of employees and cost billions to provide.

Re: Apple removes Fortnite from App Store after Epic attempts to bypass fees

#419

Post by yazaddaruvala » Thu, Aug 13, 2020, 10:08 PM UTC

aaomidi wrote: post #409

yazaddaruvala wrote: post #363

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your statement seems inaccurate. Doesn't the Sony Playstation, or Microsoft's Xbox get to control how they operate? Don't movie theaters get to decide which movies are shown/not? Don't service providers like a nail salon or grocery store get to deny service? Other than for "protected categories" like sex, race, religion. e.g. "No shirt, no shoes, no service".

When these behaviors are being used to stifle competition they should be stopped too.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "stifle"?

Fortnite is a clear example of a success story of competition on the iOS platform. Epic has been making tons of money (billions in profit) for years thanks for Fortnite and in some part to iOS and the AppStore.

This current battle between Epic and Apple is about profit sharing and that's all. Have you seen the number of successful games on the iOS platform? Competition is thriving! But I do agree both companies are greedy.

Re: Apple removes Fortnite from App Store after Epic attempts to bypass fees

#420

Post by baddox » Thu, Aug 13, 2020, 10:11 PM UTC

detaro wrote: post #251

baddox wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Okay, but imagine that Fortnite used Unreal but wasn’t created by the creators of Unreal. Do you think that Fortnite would be more comfortable playing chicken with the App Store and risking getting banned like this, or playing chicken with the game engine that their entire game is implemented with? In practice I would say a game engine has more leverage over a game developer than a single distribution platform.

If Unreal were the problem, Fortnite could have chosen a different game engine at the start (this is not about terms changing after all) and it would not affect their options to sell to customers. And while porting would be expensive, it would be possible without loosing access to customers. Nobody doesn't buy a game because they bought an unreal-only PC somewhere.

> Fortnite could have chosen a different game engine at the start (this is not about terms changing after all)

Right. Apple's terms were clear from the start, so Fortnite had no reasonable expectation to be allowed to violate them. Just like Fortnite could have chosen to use a different game engine if they didn't like the terms of a particular game engine, they could choose to focus on non-Apple platforms (or choose to abide by Apple's terms on Apple's platform) if they don't like Apple's terms. I'm not sure what you're getting at.