Apple removes Fortnite from App Store after Epic attempts to bypass fees • Hacker News Board

Re: Apple removes Fortnite from App Store after Epic attempts to bypass fees

#381

Post by yazaddaruvala » Thu, Aug 13, 2020, 9:17 PM UTC

aaomidi wrote: post #358

yazaddaruvala wrote: post #356

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is it more of a "general computing platform" than an Xbox or a Playstation or a Bravia? All of those platforms have stores, all of them allow digital downloads of software that executes, all of those have browsers. What makes the iPhone "general purpose" where the others are not?

Probably the fact that no one made a fuss over consoles. I'd argue the same rules should start applying for them as well. But there was nothing stopping Microsoft from releasing halo onto the playstation. There is nothing stopping anyone from developing a game for these consoles.

And there is nothing stopping Epic from releasing Fortnite on the iPhone (in-fact it was there for years).

The rules could be unfair[1] but this issue is just Epic not wanting to follow the rules to make some more money.

[1] We can discuss what a fair price/percentage should be. Arguably the market and Apple customers have decided 30% is fair, but we can discuss. Meanwhile, side-loading or not charging would make my iPhone experience worse.

Re: Apple removes Fortnite from App Store after Epic attempts to bypass fees

#382

Post by asldkjaslkdj » Thu, Aug 13, 2020, 9:17 PM UTC

elliekelly wrote: post #12

What is Apple’s end game here? It seems like they’re fighting a losing battle and digging their own antitrust grave. Pretty clever on Epic’s part to specifically highlight how Apple’s app store fee hits the user directly. Pretty short-sighted of Apple to immediately pull an app for providing consumers with additional disclosure about where their money is going.

Apple's the richest company in the world.

They certainly have a lot to lose if they back down, and a court battle's outcome is uncertain.

What is also certain is that Apple has enough cash sloshing around to out-lawyer and outlast anyone on the planet. They very clearly do not have a monopoly, and the charges of anti-competitiveness are a bit flimsy. Seems like a worthwhile risk to take.

Re: Apple removes Fortnite from App Store after Epic attempts to bypass fees

#383

Post by vffhfhf » Thu, Aug 13, 2020, 9:18 PM UTC

I dont think people here actually understand why monopolies are bad.

Its not for consumers. Consumers will always feel safe with what they have.

Its to not stifle the competition.

Look what happened to vine.

A competitor bought it, twitter. Gutted it and left it. It could have been next tiktok in a few years. We would never know.

How many competitor have google and apple stiffed?

Re: Apple removes Fortnite from App Store after Epic attempts to bypass fees

#384

Post by g_p » Thu, Aug 13, 2020, 9:19 PM UTC

Veen wrote: post #359

smnrchrds wrote: post #160

Discussion of Apple topics here on HN almost always gets reduced to the argument that Apple is not a monopoly, so what they are doing is OK. I want to present an alternative viewpoint. It's not a monopoly issue, it is an anti-competitive issue. In Canada, we have three major cell carriers. None of them has a monopoly, or anything close to it. None of them has even 50% market share. You can have a 10 GB smartphone pla…

I find those prices shocking. In the UK, I pay £10 for 6GB and unlimited calls and texts. For £20, I could have 80 GB of data on my current network.

I think the UK telecoms market has much lower headline prices thanks to the sheer number of MVNOs (virtual networks) - regular operators even own MVNOs to get some brand segmentation (Three owns Smarty, Telefonica O2 owns GiffGaff, just to name two).

The MVNOs compete heavily on price, and drive prices down for savvy customers. You can get 3 GB/month with unlimited calls and SMS (with roaming to 50+ countries) for 6 GBP per month on a 30 day rolling deal, right now.

Re: Apple removes Fortnite from App Store after Epic attempts to bypass fees

#385

Post by kazinator » Thu, Aug 13, 2020, 9:19 PM UTC

smnrchrds wrote: post #160

Discussion of Apple topics here on HN almost always gets reduced to the argument that Apple is not a monopoly, so what they are doing is OK. I want to present an alternative viewpoint. It's not a monopoly issue, it is an anti-competitive issue. In Canada, we have three major cell carriers. None of them has a monopoly, or anything close to it. None of them has even 50% market share. You can have a 10 GB smartphone pla…

> They don't gather in smoke-filled rooms and decide how to screw over their customers.

While that makes for nice rhetoric in your great comment, you don't actually know that this doesn't happen.

Re: Apple removes Fortnite from App Store after Epic attempts to bypass fees

#386

Post by yazaddaruvala » Thu, Aug 13, 2020, 9:20 PM UTC

nrb wrote: post #108

basch wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple can argue its 30% surcharge protects consumers from their payment information being tied to each individual product, making canceling easier and buying things safer.

... and competitors do the same for less than a tenth of that cost. The only thing that allows them to do so is complete control over the ecosystem to shut out all competition.

I pay them so I don't need to make the choice!

If I wanted a different choice I'd buy a different brand of phone.

Re: Apple removes Fortnite from App Store after Epic attempts to bypass fees

#387

Post by dathinab » Thu, Aug 13, 2020, 9:20 PM UTC

ecf wrote: post #91

slongfield wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If a developer doesn't like Unreal's terms, there are other game engines. If a developer doesn't like Apple's terms, there are no viable alternatives for iOS distribution.

But there are other Smartphone platforms with their own store, correct? I don’t know why people feel it’s their undeniable right to be able to provide an app to iOS users.

Because for many applications it's not viable to not provide service for iOs users, which is sad but true.

Consider you not being able to:

- buy train tickets under iOs

- check-in into a hotel under iOs

- do video conferences

- chat with your friend

- cross play with your friends

- open your apartment doors

- check your health data

- do online banking

- securely check your email

- do Ueber, Rbnb, etc.

- buy at Amazone

- etc.

Sure many (but not all) things might be doable over web interface but this crates often much more frictions and due to constraints put onto web interfaces and PWS also has often much worse UX, not providing service for millions of iOs users is often deadly and providing competitively shitty service isn't anygood either, even worse if you have to compete with Apple itself which gives there apps unfair advantages beyond not needing to pay the 30% cut.

Let's be honest any marked which covers millions of people should be handled as a standalone marked even if you could argue it's just part of a bigger marked by any government or you fail your people (and the free marked idea IMHO, but reasoning about this is tricky as it involves considering how the marked dynamics have fundamentally changed and how thinks which would have worked in benefit for the population don't work anymore in the current times and therefore how the marked (laws) has to adapt to it).

Re: Apple removes Fortnite from App Store after Epic attempts to bypass fees

#388

Post by solaceb » Thu, Aug 13, 2020, 9:21 PM UTC

lliamander wrote: post #349

60secz wrote: post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Game console to General computing device isn't exactly apples to apples. But yes, It'd be great if users could install unsigned apps on all the devices they own.

A game console is not general purpose computing device?

I will disagree with dathinab and say of course gaming consoles are general purpose computing devices.

But they are general purpose computing devices with built-in malware that makes the device only useful for the types of computing the seller wants you to do with the device. And that's gaming, of course

Re: Apple removes Fortnite from App Store after Epic attempts to bypass fees

#389

Post by zo1 » Thu, Aug 13, 2020, 9:23 PM UTC

dathinab wrote: post #367

zyang wrote: post #351

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Epic is tied to Tencent. This is a risky move.

This should not matter, if it does then it would be hard to call the US a "constitutional state"/"state of law".

Motives matter, and taking the motives of foreign-owned businesses into account when dealing with one of the largest businesses in the US is a perfectly reasonable thing to do. What if the motive behind this is to just destabilize the price of Apple? What if it's part of a large campaign to destabilize a lot of US companies, not just this one?

Re: Apple removes Fortnite from App Store after Epic attempts to bypass fees

#390

Post by parasubvert » Thu, Aug 13, 2020, 9:23 PM UTC

smnrchrds wrote: post #160

Discussion of Apple topics here on HN almost always gets reduced to the argument that Apple is not a monopoly, so what they are doing is OK. I want to present an alternative viewpoint. It's not a monopoly issue, it is an anti-competitive issue. In Canada, we have three major cell carriers. None of them has a monopoly, or anything close to it. None of them has even 50% market share. You can have a 10 GB smartphone pla…

A market equilibrium is reached and it’s called anti-competitive behaviour. I don’t know whether to laugh or cry.

I suppose the state could implement price controls and force Rogers et al to lower their prices. That worked well in the past!