China Uighurs: A model's video gives a rare glimpse inside internment • Hacker News Board

Re: China Uighurs: A model's video gives a rare glimpse inside internment

#131

Post by metrokoi » Wed, Aug 05, 2020, 11:07 AM UTC

phreack wrote: post #49

bmitc wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In a workplace environment, it is completely inappropriate. Second of all, why? What do you wish to discuss? What would you like to happen? What do these people have to do with it? If you're in the U.S., do you have anything useful to discuss regarding Guantanamo Bay and the many other U.S. black sites or the Mexican concentration camps run at the border? Do you think those are appropriate conversation pieces to brin…

There is a comparable situation with Americans, many people are unaware of the Tulsa massacre, and the reaction I've seen from people first hearing about it is mostly anger at it not being taught. Personally I'd be thankful to know of censored history, particularly if it is occurring and being censored right now, in a democracy.

I've never met a single person who was not taught about that in school a decade or two ago, from a very conservative area. That is just my experience of course, but I do find it perplexing. Was this many decades ago that it was not taught, or in a specific area?

Re: China Uighurs: A model's video gives a rare glimpse inside internment

#132

Post by tasogare » Wed, Aug 05, 2020, 11:08 AM UTC

dumb1224 wrote: post #98

fiblye wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The outcomes will also give them a heightened sense of nationalism and feed into the idea that the West is just out to get China and Chinese people, which the media plays up quite a bit. As an American, sitting down next to a European on vacation for more than a few minutes is never fun. Once they inevitably ask "Where are you from?", they follow it up with a lecture on American politics before I can even finish my s…

That's my worry too. A lot of us are very defensive now even to be reasonable. However it is hard to buy these videos if you were born and raised in China, simply because you understand the culture around it. For example there are a lot of Vloggers in Xinjiang https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dRXnF42z1oM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P3VGz4HFs_A If you understand the language and culture the locals talk a similar wa…

I think this is an important point. Even if GP "open the eyes" of coworkers on the matter, there is absolutely no guarantee that they will side with the Western point of view. For a variety of reasons they might approve the government action, which will cause additional tension to an already rude situation, as explained by other posters.

Re: China Uighurs: A model's video gives a rare glimpse inside internment

#133

Post by the-dude » Wed, Aug 05, 2020, 11:13 AM UTC

barry-cotter wrote: post #103

bmitc wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In a workplace environment, it is completely inappropriate. Second of all, why? What do you wish to discuss? What would you like to happen? What do these people have to do with it? If you're in the U.S., do you have anything useful to discuss regarding Guantanamo Bay and the many other U.S. black sites or the Mexican concentration camps run at the border? Do you think those are appropriate conversation pieces to brin…

> In a workplace environment, it is completely inappropriate. Quite. Just as it would have been vulgar to bring up the Holocaust with a German tourist in Switzerland or Italy in 1940.

Quite. It hadn't even started at that time.

Re: China Uighurs: A model's video gives a rare glimpse inside internment

#134

Post by pdr2020 » Wed, Aug 05, 2020, 11:19 AM UTC

bArray wrote: post #121

As fellow humans, there is no way to look at this situation and find something positive. The actions of the CCP need to be condemned. If you disagree with this point, we are fundamentally at odds. To those complaining about the anti-China narrative, it's the CCP (government) which are at fault, not the people. I think we should always make it very clear that it's not the Chinese people we take issue with and we are n…

This is one of the most cleanly straightforward and mature posts I've read on HN in awhile. And quite practical too, particularly that last portion. Also, agreed.

Re: China Uighurs: A model's video gives a rare glimpse inside internment

#135

Post by metrokoi » Wed, Aug 05, 2020, 11:20 AM UTC

mattigames wrote: post #42

throwaway_pdp09 wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I have been frequently asked about political events/situations in Germany Do those involve anything as awful as what's happening in China? If they were and you were asked to comment, how would it make you feel? > I have to say I also find it chilling to say we can't discuss topics which have political implications Sure you can! Just not at work. Mate, don't do it. Take it from someone who can't keep his mouth shut.

"Just not at work" always sounds strange to me, a lot of people know all their friends and acquaintance exclusively from work, so when people is recommended to avoid talking about those issues with coworkers many times the result is for all practical purposes they are being told to avoid talking about the issue at all. I'm not sure what the solution is but "just not at work" doesn't seem to be it.

Work is for talking about work, not anything else. A few cordial off-topic comments here and there are fine, but if I have time to discuss politics at work that's time that I could have spent doing my job, and likely and subsequently more of my free time will be taken finishing up projects.

Talking politics == my free time, and I don't want to exchange my leisure hours for talking politics with my co-workers. The entire rest of your life can be talking about politics with your friends, your life shouldn't just be work.

It seems the real problem is too much of people's lives is work and so they think they have no time to talk politics.

Re: China Uighurs: A model's video gives a rare glimpse inside internment

#136

Post by dirtyid » Wed, Aug 05, 2020, 11:20 AM UTC

MagnumOpus wrote: post #102

dirtyid wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

XJ is interpreted as a counter-terrorism / COIN operation in China - aka War on Terror. Go look up Uyghur terrorism attacks in China on Global Terrorism DB, there's 100+ that stopped abruptly after XJ security architecture / Strike Hard campaign. Spreading to interior provinces including TianAnMen. Western MSM will report 2009 minority riots and probably stop there, but it was ongoing for until 2017s. Generally, you…

> 1-2 million is ~0.1% of the Chinese population Amazing hot take. Ethnically cleansing millions of people is A-OK as long as your country's population is large enough. That is prime wumaodang logic. > XJ model - integrating Uighur rapidly The Chinese model of "ethnocide" -- eradicating the religion, culture and written language of successive minority groups from Manchu to Tibetan, Uighur, Hlai, Zhuang, Oirat Mongols…

Good luck getting any population to care about repressing 0.1% for national security. Math education is good in China, people understand per-capita and more importantly understand the terrorism stopped. Nothing else matters. It doesn't hurt their geopolitical adversary jails more in relative if not absolute terms. This "world" of yours is 23 who signed a letter against XJ versus 54 who supports XJ. Reeducation narrative has firm lead. There's about 100 countries who just don't care. And ultimately only 1 whose doing anything about it, but for geopolitics, and not because it cares.

>ME fear CCP

What is this, opposite day? Muslim countries fear China's zero military experience and zero force projection ability versus actual bombs being dropped in ME right now by west? Authoritarian countries likes what China wants to sell. A global order where authoritarianism is seen as a valid alternative governance model, a raising power who actually doesn't sanction or regime change over human rights. About the only Chinese "win-win" benefit most parties unironically believe in. Oh, also China used the Veto least.

>Chinese politicians however, are incredibly insecure

At this point I don't know if you're writing to debate or writing to cope.

Understanding CCP Resilience: Surveying Chinese Public Opinion Through Time. July 2020

>We find that first, since the start of the survey in 2003, Chinese citizen satisfaction with government has increased virtually across the board. From the impact of broad national policies to the conduct of local town officials, Chinese citizens rate the government as more capable and effective than ever before. Interestingly, more marginalized groups in poorer, inland regions are actually comparatively more likely to report increases in satisfaction. https://ash.harvard.edu/files/ash/files/final_policy_brief_7...

Anyway, we're done.

Re: China Uighurs: A model's video gives a rare glimpse inside internment

#137

Post by yorwba » Wed, Aug 05, 2020, 11:21 AM UTC

alzaeem wrote: post #123

yorwba wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tip: you don't have to be pro-CCP to realize that (mainstream) Western reporting on China is frequently very focused on a handful of stories and discards a lot of information that doesn't fit. For example, I haven't seen a mainstream story yet on labor camps for people who aren't Turkic Muslims but e.g. drug addicts https://madeinchinajournal.com/2019/10/25/punish-and-cure%ef...

Great. How awful of us to not appreciate that CCP treats their ethnic and religious minorities like drug addicts

You make it sound like it would be totally okay if only they weren't ethnic and religious minorities but drug addicts instead...

Re: China Uighurs: A model's video gives a rare glimpse inside internment

#138

Post by pdr2020 » Wed, Aug 05, 2020, 11:22 AM UTC

rydre wrote: post #52

As a Muslim, I do not believe this. I still remember the Iraq war. No need to believe state media companies like BBC that never questioned the narrative in the "free" world. China will win hearts, propaganda will lose. No major Muslim country says anything about China. Should make you question everything the mainstream "free" world narrative says about China. Old boomer era propaganda wont work :D come up with someth…

You're right, it can't simply be because Muslim country ties to China are economically huge/vast... oh wait.

Re: China Uighurs: A model's video gives a rare glimpse inside internment

#139

Post by dirtyid » Wed, Aug 05, 2020, 11:39 AM UTC

throwaway_pdp09 wrote: post #110

dirtyid wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

XJ is interpreted as a counter-terrorism / COIN operation in China - aka War on Terror. Go look up Uyghur terrorism attacks in China on Global Terrorism DB, there's 100+ that stopped abruptly after XJ security architecture / Strike Hard campaign. Spreading to interior provinces including TianAnMen. Western MSM will report 2009 minority riots and probably stop there, but it was ongoing for until 2017s. Generally, you…

> what if XJ works? It may well work. And mass sterilisation of women also works ( https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/china-conducting-mass-steril... ) in that being sterilised stops them having kids, which is the point. Most effective too! What you're totally, frighteningly blind to is whether it's morally OK.

Sinicizating XJ will be mostly cultural genocide, which of course is immoral. Though many Uighurs will still remain Islamic but with Chinese characteristics - promoting religion is key Chinese foreign policy to connect with OBOR cultures. No, I'm not blind to it, nor to dumb western media spins, i.e. mass sterilization = 2 child policy. You can ask 1.3 billion Han how immoral one child policy and family planning was for the last 40 years. Hint: very.

The original question is how the situation is communicated and discussed in China. And I answered. You know how the west can talk about lots of issues like actual wars where we're aggressors, systemic racism that kept minority down or in jails etc with nuance? That happens in China on various topics too. At the end of the day, just like the west, many don't give a shit. Unlike the west, they can't really protest if they do. But even if they could, most probably wouldn't, because people irrationally and massively overreact to terrorism.

Re: China Uighurs: A model's video gives a rare glimpse inside internment

#140

Post by Synaesthesia » Wed, Aug 05, 2020, 11:44 AM UTC

bArray wrote: post #121

As fellow humans, there is no way to look at this situation and find something positive. The actions of the CCP need to be condemned. If you disagree with this point, we are fundamentally at odds. To those complaining about the anti-China narrative, it's the CCP (government) which are at fault, not the people. I think we should always make it very clear that it's not the Chinese people we take issue with and we are n…

We ought to condemn China for it's human rights abuses. We should also condemn Israel for similar abuses, which it's doing out in the public. Keeping 2 million people in a virtual concentration camp in Gaza, with no hope.