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China Uighurs: A model's video gives a rare glimpse inside internment

bbc.com

121–130 of 187 posts

Re: China Uighurs: A model's video gives a rare glimpse inside internment

#121
As fellow humans, there is no way to look at this situation and find something positive. The actions of the CCP need to be condemned. If you disagree with this point, we are fundamentally at odds.

To those complaining about the anti-China narrative, it's the CCP (government) which are at fault, not the people. I think we should always make it very clear that it's not the Chinese people we take issue with and we are not condemning people based on race.

As for actions taken against China and masquerading behind human-rights to justify them, I think it's okay to temporary align ourselves with those whose actions align with our ideology, even if the motivation is different. Life is about compromise and we're going to find very few allies if we will only work with people perfectly aligned with our own motivations.

Re: China Uighurs: A model's video gives a rare glimpse inside internment

#122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From a moral perspective, that's maybe one thing. From a legal it might be another - you might be construed as discriminating against them or harassing them based on their ethnicity, which is in fact valid; if they weren't chinese you wouldn't be discussing it with them. So in that sense I really would think carefully. In fact, don't. If they bring it up themselves, for or against that slightly changes things but fra…

These are some of the thoughts I've been having as well. On the other hand I'm actually generally interested in how this situation is communicated in China? How much and what do they know about it (note that they left China some years ago). I have to say I also find it chilling to say we can't discuss topics which have political implications for fear of it being construed of harassment. I have been frequently asked a…

The closest analogy I can think of is Conservatives and BLM.

Those that support the camps genuinely see them as de-radicalization centres.

Re: China Uighurs: A model's video gives a rare glimpse inside internment

#123
post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tip: you don't need to be pro-CCP to be pro-China. I'm pro-my country? Yes. I'm pro-my country's government? Absolutely not.

Tip: you don't have to be pro-CCP to realize that (mainstream) Western reporting on China is frequently very focused on a handful of stories and discards a lot of information that doesn't fit. For example, I haven't seen a mainstream story yet on labor camps for people who aren't Turkic Muslims but e.g. drug addicts https://madeinchinajournal.com/2019/10/25/punish-and-cure%ef...

Great. How awful of us to not appreciate that CCP treats their ethnic and religious minorities like drug addicts

Re: China Uighurs: A model's video gives a rare glimpse inside internment

#124
post #86

And don't forget what's happening to Falun Gong practitioners in China [0][1]. Although I can't be sure, from observation it seems to me like this information is still more heavily embargoed both in China and beyond. The persecution of Uighurs is getting China a lot of heat internationally but domestically it doesn't seem to be as disruptive. Demonizing Uighurs has been much easier given their different ethnicity, re…

Don’t forget that the Falun Gong newspaper, The Epoch Times, was banned from Facebook due to publishing conspiracy theories,

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/08/23/technology/facebook-ads-e...

Re: China Uighurs: A model's video gives a rare glimpse inside internment

#125
post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's interesting that you believe he was arrested once but cannot believe that he was arrested twice. If the pictures and chatlogs were from his first stint in prison, would you believe it then?

Many anti-CCP actors have criminal records. Maybe they have a difficult life after having criminal records, so they become actors. I can't imagine how the prisoner got a phone, so I don't believe this was filmed in prison. The point is not whether he was arrested or not, but he accused the CCP of torturing Uyghurs. This is completely illogical. China has 56 ethnic groups, and all of them are Chinese nationals. Tortur…

If that was reasonable then there wouldn't be any problem with letting us check, no?

I'm from Germany, this looks exactly like the thing we reiterate 'never again' on. What would you have done, looking at Germany in 1940? The sad truth is, most people would do nothing, and that is something we try to work against.

Re: China Uighurs: A model's video gives a rare glimpse inside internment

#126
post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That was the problem in the beginning though, waging a separatist war. It's why all this started when a lot of Uyghurs came back from Syria after fighting for ISIS. Do you think more of those bombing campaigns, taking hostages at police stations and throwing hand grenades out of cars into busy market bazaars will improve the situation for the people of Xinjiang?

are you assuming they should try to find independence with democratic means... in autocratic china?

I'm saying it's not a good idea. Just like the Rohyingyas who the West cheered on and waxed lyrically about their treatment for years, when push comes to shove no one did a thing to either take in the refugees or pressure the tiny weak impoverished government to stop committing genocide against them and their rebellion. If the West won't stand up to Burma, what do you truly think they're going to do against nuclear armed China, the second largest economy on Earth?

It's all well and good to have ideals, but don't pretend they apply in the real world of politics.

Feel free to say your country will take in a hundred thousand Uyghurs to free them, we all know it won't happen. The UK somehow has space for a million people from HK but there's no way on Earth they'd take 1% of that from Xinjiang province.

Words are cheap. Just ask the Rohingyas how they are fairing in 2020.

Re: China Uighurs: A model's video gives a rare glimpse inside internment

#127
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are two outcomes: 1: They really will not know what you're talking about and think you're crazy and just hate Chinese people (this is common). 2: They will somewhat know what you're talking about, and have a massive list of bad things your country has done/is still doing, and you won't be happy (this is also common, but slightly less common) If you were good friends, you can mention this and drop it and try to…

Just for the record here do you have any mainland Chinese friends?

[deleted]

Re: China Uighurs: A model's video gives a rare glimpse inside internment

#128

I've been wondering how I could bring this up with the mainland Chinese I know. It's particularly difficult, because for some of them I'm in a supervisory/managerial role, but I don't want to put pressure on them, which would raise all sort of other ethical dilemmas and would likely not be effective. Anyone else can share experiences?

If they don't have the same free speech that you do, you could be putting them in a uncomfortable/risky situation.

Re: China Uighurs: A model's video gives a rare glimpse inside internment

#129
post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's interesting that you believe he was arrested once but cannot believe that he was arrested twice. If the pictures and chatlogs were from his first stint in prison, would you believe it then?

Many anti-CCP actors have criminal records. Maybe they have a difficult life after having criminal records, so they become actors. I can't imagine how the prisoner got a phone, so I don't believe this was filmed in prison. The point is not whether he was arrested or not, but he accused the CCP of torturing Uyghurs. This is completely illogical. China has 56 ethnic groups, and all of them are Chinese nationals. Tortur…

Of course it's not China or the CCP torturing Uyghurs. Rather, it's individual Chinese prison guards (who may or may not be in the CCP or Uyghurs or both) torturing individual Chinese prisoners (who may or may not be in the CCP or Uyghurs or both).

The CCP leadership may intend prison to be places of transformation instilling a sense of gratefulness for the CCP's benevolent rule, thus requiring prisoners to be treated well, kept in good health, provided with a good education so they will be able to earn a living after release doing honest work rather than having to work as actors or whatever...

But that costs a lot to implement and who's going to implement it? Inexperienced prison guards who were just recently hired when the state increased it's security budget in Xinjiang and who didn't go to a police academy where they learn fancy stuff like "torturing people may make them rat out their friends and earn you a promotion for making your arrest quota, but in the long term it fuels resentment and destabilizes the country, so don't do it" since there aren't enough of those graduating each year, and you may recall that the whole reason re-education is even necessary is that the education system in Xinjiang failed to properly instill Socialist Values like patriotism and democracy and so on, so why would it have succeeded at instilling the idea that torture is bad?

Actually, even if they all had college degrees that wouldn't completely curb abuse, since driving children to suicide https://mp.weixin.qq.com/s/BRYqWk0GGaGZGkI1S9EGRg or torturing them with electric shocks https://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E8%B1%AB%E7%AB%A0%E4%B9%A6%E9... is also illogical, yet presumably college-educated teachers still did it.

Re: China Uighurs: A model's video gives a rare glimpse inside internment

#130
post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many anti-CCP actors have criminal records. Maybe they have a difficult life after having criminal records, so they become actors. I can't imagine how the prisoner got a phone, so I don't believe this was filmed in prison. The point is not whether he was arrested or not, but he accused the CCP of torturing Uyghurs. This is completely illogical. China has 56 ethnic groups, and all of them are Chinese nationals. Tortur…

If that was reasonable then there wouldn't be any problem with letting us check, no? I'm from Germany, this looks exactly like the thing we reiterate 'never again' on. What would you have done, looking at Germany in 1940? The sad truth is, most people would do nothing, and that is something we try to work against.

Yes, come and check, as far as I know, the government welcomes foreign media to visit Xinjiang.

FMRPC once publicly invited Pompeo to visit Xinjiang. (You can use Google Translate to read) https://www.fmprc.gov.cn/web/fyrbt_673021/t1798202.shtml

As mentioned earlier, the BBC visited the education camp, but found no evidence of abuse and had to use filters and editing techniques to instill ideas into the audience.

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