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China Uighurs: A model's video gives a rare glimpse inside internment

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31–40 of 187 posts

Re: China Uighurs: A model's video gives a rare glimpse inside internment

#31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you're using China-made products, you're responsible What sort of limits do you have to this statement? You're posting this on a forum. Have you checked the country of origin of the servers and components used by the telecoms for their equipment between you and those servers?

That's a straw man though. Nobody said you need to be perfect, however there are enough products where we know exactly where they made and still ignore the human rights violations, maybe that's a good start.

It seems to me that the original comment did indeed say you have to be perfect, and that you’re complicit with China’s worst abuses to the degree that you aren’t. I’m all in favor of boycotting China, but it seems extraordinarily counterproductive to say that anyone who’s not currently boycotting is a bad person.

Re: China Uighurs: A model's video gives a rare glimpse inside internment

#32

I've been wondering how I could bring this up with the mainland Chinese I know. It's particularly difficult, because for some of them I'm in a supervisory/managerial role, but I don't want to put pressure on them, which would raise all sort of other ethical dilemmas and would likely not be effective. Anyone else can share experiences?

From a moral perspective, that's maybe one thing. From a legal it might be another - you might be construed as discriminating against them or harassing them based on their ethnicity, which is in fact valid; if they weren't chinese you wouldn't be discussing it with them. So in that sense I really would think carefully. In fact, don't. If they bring it up themselves, for or against that slightly changes things but fra…

These are some of the thoughts I've been having as well. On the other hand I'm actually generally interested in how this situation is communicated in China? How much and what do they know about it (note that they left China some years ago). I have to say I also find it chilling to say we can't discuss topics which have political implications for fear of it being construed of harassment. I have been frequently asked about political events/situations in Germany (where I come from), without it feeling like harassment at all.

Re: China Uighurs: A model's video gives a rare glimpse inside internment

#33

I've been wondering how I could bring this up with the mainland Chinese I know. It's particularly difficult, because for some of them I'm in a supervisory/managerial role, but I don't want to put pressure on them, which would raise all sort of other ethical dilemmas and would likely not be effective. Anyone else can share experiences?

From a moral perspective, that's maybe one thing. From a legal it might be another - you might be construed as discriminating against them or harassing them based on their ethnicity, which is in fact valid; if they weren't chinese you wouldn't be discussing it with them. So in that sense I really would think carefully. In fact, don't. If they bring it up themselves, for or against that slightly changes things but fra…

What does it have to do with ethnicity? He said "mainland Chinese", which is a form of citizenship. I think that all sides would agree that a good fraction of people from Taiwan are ethnically Chinese. As far as I know, citizenship is not a protected class (outside of certain treaties).

As for it being a good idea... nope. I wouldn't put myself in a situation where the Chinese government calls my employer and politely asks them to reassign me to the Antarctic branch. It's not a democracy, normal citizens have no power, and expecting your coworkers to do so is putting them and yourself in danger.

Re: China Uighurs: A model's video gives a rare glimpse inside internment

#34
post #21
post #6

The CCP imprisoned him and provided him a cell phone and internet so that he can communicate with the outside world... Well, if that also convinces you that I have nothing to say. This kind of propaganda from the West is something China cannot learn.

Sigh, more Zenz quotes and his "credible" estimates. >A few days later, the prisoners were loaded onto minibuses and sent away to an unknown location. It would be trivially easy to strip out the meta data and geo-locate his location to match buildings across to see if it's an actual detention site. But naw, unknown location and unverifiable documents. The sad thing is the psyops aren't very good, the audience is just…

The issue with the USA224 for circulation of media in the public (call it propaganda or propaganda busting, not relevant) is that it states pretty clearly "As the Military of the United States, we have a problem with you, China". That's getting pretty close to a declaration of war.

Edit: OK strictly it is not operated directly by the military, but by an intelligence organisation. The line here is a bit blurry though, as the imagery is clearly used for military purposes.

Re: China Uighurs: A model's video gives a rare glimpse inside internment

#35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From a moral perspective, that's maybe one thing. From a legal it might be another - you might be construed as discriminating against them or harassing them based on their ethnicity, which is in fact valid; if they weren't chinese you wouldn't be discussing it with them. So in that sense I really would think carefully. In fact, don't. If they bring it up themselves, for or against that slightly changes things but fra…

These are some of the thoughts I've been having as well. On the other hand I'm actually generally interested in how this situation is communicated in China? How much and what do they know about it (note that they left China some years ago). I have to say I also find it chilling to say we can't discuss topics which have political implications for fear of it being construed of harassment. I have been frequently asked a…

> I have been frequently asked about political events/situations in Germany

Do those involve anything as awful as what's happening in China? If they were and you were asked to comment, how would it make you feel?

> I have to say I also find it chilling to say we can't discuss topics which have political implications

Sure you can! Just not at work. Mate, don't do it. Take it from someone who can't keep his mouth shut.

Re: China Uighurs: A model's video gives a rare glimpse inside internment

#36
post #5

Downvote me for this - If you're using China-made products, you're responsible for the bugger balls of CCP, unethical/illegal selling of human organs and what not. They are no different from a radical terrorist organization.

Finally, we even privatized responsibility

Re: China Uighurs: A model's video gives a rare glimpse inside internment

#37

I've been wondering how I could bring this up with the mainland Chinese I know. It's particularly difficult, because for some of them I'm in a supervisory/managerial role, but I don't want to put pressure on them, which would raise all sort of other ethical dilemmas and would likely not be effective. Anyone else can share experiences?

Han Chinese are also speaking up for this: https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2020/06/witness-to-di...

(But I would not suggest discussing unless you are close friends beyond work)

Re: China Uighurs: A model's video gives a rare glimpse inside internment

#38
post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From a moral perspective, that's maybe one thing. From a legal it might be another - you might be construed as discriminating against them or harassing them based on their ethnicity, which is in fact valid; if they weren't chinese you wouldn't be discussing it with them. So in that sense I really would think carefully. In fact, don't. If they bring it up themselves, for or against that slightly changes things but fra…

What does it have to do with ethnicity? He said "mainland Chinese", which is a form of citizenship. I think that all sides would agree that a good fraction of people from Taiwan are ethnically Chinese. As far as I know, citizenship is not a protected class (outside of certain treaties). As for it being a good idea... nope. I wouldn't put myself in a situation where the Chinese government calls my employer and politel…

It's still construable as an ethnicity, even in in fact it's just citizenship (but nice distinction). It doesn't have to be what is, only what can be construed in an unfriendly tribunal or court situation.

Re: China Uighurs: A model's video gives a rare glimpse inside internment

#39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From a moral perspective, that's maybe one thing. From a legal it might be another - you might be construed as discriminating against them or harassing them based on their ethnicity, which is in fact valid; if they weren't chinese you wouldn't be discussing it with them. So in that sense I really would think carefully. In fact, don't. If they bring it up themselves, for or against that slightly changes things but fra…

These are some of the thoughts I've been having as well. On the other hand I'm actually generally interested in how this situation is communicated in China? How much and what do they know about it (note that they left China some years ago). I have to say I also find it chilling to say we can't discuss topics which have political implications for fear of it being construed of harassment. I have been frequently asked a…

XJ is interpreted as a counter-terrorism / COIN operation in China - aka War on Terror. Go look up Uyghur terrorism attacks in China on Global Terrorism DB, there's 100+ that stopped abruptly after XJ security architecture / Strike Hard campaign. Spreading to interior provinces including TianAnMen. Western MSM will report 2009 minority riots and probably stop there, but it was ongoing for until 2017s. Generally, you won't find much mainstream sympathy because Uyghurs were already getting massive affirmative action privileges, and the ones outside of XJ has reputation (right or wrongly) of being Chinese gypsies. You'll find more sympathy from Han in XJ, because they have to deal with apartheid, but even this sympathy is declining due to increased nationalism and domestic propaganda. Overall, average Chinese will find re-education strategy much more humane and western forever wars. And really like... 1-2 million is ~0.1% of the Chinese population. Statistically it's hard to convince them it's a big deal compared to US prison industrial complex. Sure it's whataboutism, but it's also math. The average Chinese is focused on covid recovery, and before that pork prices. XJ/Tibet is just not something on the radar, and there's enough domestic propaganda to counter western propaganda.

The bigger unsaid issue is US/Pompeo/China hawks has zero moral credibility in China. For Chinese, the XJ model - integrating Uighur rapidly is seen both as a "fairer" minority policy and more effective COIN model. As long as the west jails minorities disproportionately, and dropping bombs on weddings, there's no argument or propaganda to convince Chinese they're not making the better moral choice.

E: The even bigger unsaid issue, which every expert musing about the global implication of surveillance authoritarianism but won't publicly entertain is: what if XJ works? There's a reason China has 2X support of the XJ program than US can gather against, from majority Islamic countries no less. It's not just lol-debt trap. There are many parties interested in XJ model working. 80% of the world are flawed democracies or worse, and the overall trajectory is illiberal decline and increased geopolitical instability. There are more rulers who is invested in XJ working than not. The even larger issue than that? West doesn't have a alternative model, we've been flirting with incremental improvements over decade scales whenever our own "contradictions" force our hands, i.e. BLM. That's just not good enough.

Re: China Uighurs: A model's video gives a rare glimpse inside internment

#40

I've been wondering how I could bring this up with the mainland Chinese I know. It's particularly difficult, because for some of them I'm in a supervisory/managerial role, but I don't want to put pressure on them, which would raise all sort of other ethical dilemmas and would likely not be effective. Anyone else can share experiences?

There are two outcomes: 1: They really will not know what you're talking about and think you're crazy and just hate Chinese people (this is common). 2: They will somewhat know what you're talking about, and have a massive list of bad things your country has done/is still doing, and you won't be happy (this is also common, but slightly less common)

If you were good friends, you can mention this and drop it and try to move on. If you're doing this at work, it won't end well for anyone involved, and it'll be doubly bad if you're in an authority position.

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