China Uighurs: A model's video gives a rare glimpse inside internment • Hacker News Board

Re: China Uighurs: A model's video gives a rare glimpse inside internment

#101

Post by yorwba » Wed, Aug 05, 2020, 9:30 AM UTC

space_invaders wrote: post #67

admk wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well I'm Chinese and have positive personal experiences in China, so I'm pro-China. If you're going to base your questions on the premises that I do not agree with, and do not give your reasonings, then there is no way to engage in productive conversation.

Tip: you don't need to be pro-CCP to be pro-China. I'm pro-my country? Yes. I'm pro-my country's government? Absolutely not.

Tip: you don't have to be pro-CCP to realize that (mainstream) Western reporting on China is frequently very focused on a handful of stories and discards a lot of information that doesn't fit.

For example, I haven't seen a mainstream story yet on labor camps for people who aren't Turkic Muslims but e.g. drug addicts https://madeinchinajournal.com/2019/10/25/punish-and-cure%ef...

Re: China Uighurs: A model's video gives a rare glimpse inside internment

#102

Post by MagnumOpus » Wed, Aug 05, 2020, 9:43 AM UTC

dirtyid wrote: post #39

cycomanic wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These are some of the thoughts I've been having as well. On the other hand I'm actually generally interested in how this situation is communicated in China? How much and what do they know about it (note that they left China some years ago). I have to say I also find it chilling to say we can't discuss topics which have political implications for fear of it being construed of harassment. I have been frequently asked a…

XJ is interpreted as a counter-terrorism / COIN operation in China - aka War on Terror. Go look up Uyghur terrorism attacks in China on Global Terrorism DB, there's 100+ that stopped abruptly after XJ security architecture / Strike Hard campaign. Spreading to interior provinces including TianAnMen. Western MSM will report 2009 minority riots and probably stop there, but it was ongoing for until 2017s. Generally, you…

> 1-2 million is ~0.1% of the Chinese population

Amazing hot take. Ethnically cleansing millions of people is A-OK as long as your country's population is large enough. That is prime wumaodang logic.

> XJ model - integrating Uighur rapidly

The Chinese model of "ethnocide" -- eradicating the religion, culture and written language of successive minority groups from Manchu to Tibetan, Uighur, Hlai, Zhuang, Oirat Mongols and hundreds of other groups -- is successful in creating a monolithic mass of resource and people subservient to the CCP, to better enrich the CCP Beijing princelings. So understandably it is heavily pushed by media domestically and by the wumao abroad. Nonetheless ethnocide is frowned upon as a crime against humanity these days in the rest of the world (and before you go whatabout on me, yes lots of other countries did it hundreds of years ago).

> [Muslim country support for Uighur genocide is] not just lol-debt trap

It's also lol-sanctions, lol-trade-war and lol-UN-veto-power, not to speak of the CCP siccing their asymmetric warfare units on you. Muslim countries don't mind pissing off EU or US because those don't bother to get into a pissing match these days (unlike in the cold war era). Mainland Chinese politicians however, are incredibly insecure, thin skinned and obsessed with "face", so any perceived insult and they fund some rival warlord or prince to coup you off the throne...

Re: China Uighurs: A model's video gives a rare glimpse inside internment

#103

Post by barry-cotter » Wed, Aug 05, 2020, 9:44 AM UTC

bmitc wrote: post #45

cycomanic wrote: post #19

I've been wondering how I could bring this up with the mainland Chinese I know. It's particularly difficult, because for some of them I'm in a supervisory/managerial role, but I don't want to put pressure on them, which would raise all sort of other ethical dilemmas and would likely not be effective. Anyone else can share experiences?

In a workplace environment, it is completely inappropriate. Second of all, why? What do you wish to discuss? What would you like to happen? What do these people have to do with it? If you're in the U.S., do you have anything useful to discuss regarding Guantanamo Bay and the many other U.S. black sites or the Mexican concentration camps run at the border? Do you think those are appropriate conversation pieces to brin…

> In a workplace environment, it is completely inappropriate.

Quite. Just as it would have been vulgar to bring up the Holocaust with a German tourist in Switzerland or Italy in 1940.

Re: China Uighurs: A model's video gives a rare glimpse inside internment

#104

Post by markus92 » Wed, Aug 05, 2020, 9:48 AM UTC

Kootle wrote: post #95

fiblye wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The outcomes will also give them a heightened sense of nationalism and feed into the idea that the West is just out to get China and Chinese people, which the media plays up quite a bit. As an American, sitting down next to a European on vacation for more than a few minutes is never fun. Once they inevitably ask "Where are you from?", they follow it up with a lecture on American politics before I can even finish my s…

> As an American, sitting down next to a European on vacation for more than a few minutes is never fun. Once they inevitably ask "Where are you from?", they follow it up with a lecture on American politics before I can even finish my sentence. It's tedious and it's nothing new. Counter-anecdotally; I've never experienced this and in my workplace at least, the people who never stop talking politics are all American.

It's common enough many American backpackers in hostels introduce themselves as Canadians, saves them the hassle.

Re: China Uighurs: A model's video gives a rare glimpse inside internment

#105

Post by chloerei » Wed, Aug 05, 2020, 9:50 AM UTC

yorwba wrote: post #91

chloerei wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The BBC has a bad record. They visited the Xinjiang Education Camp. Although interviews were allowed, they used various shooting and editing techniques to make this school look dark, distorted, and scary. Then the content of the filming showed that this was only a skill training school. Until the end, they did not give up and hoped to take evidence of lying, but the scene of Xinjiang people leaving the education camp…

It's interesting that you believe he was arrested once but cannot believe that he was arrested twice. If the pictures and chatlogs were from his first stint in prison, would you believe it then?

Many anti-CCP actors have criminal records. Maybe they have a difficult life after having criminal records, so they become actors.

I can't imagine how the prisoner got a phone, so I don't believe this was filmed in prison.

The point is not whether he was arrested or not, but he accused the CCP of torturing Uyghurs. This is completely illogical. China has 56 ethnic groups, and all of them are Chinese nationals. Torturing will only cause resistance, and the CCP has no reason to do such things that are not conducive to stability.

The reasonable explanation is that some Western countries hope to create an image of the CCP abusing Uyghurs and then sanction China.

Re: China Uighurs: A model's video gives a rare glimpse inside internment

#106

Post by kome » Wed, Aug 05, 2020, 9:52 AM UTC

DarthGhandi wrote: post #92

tigerlily wrote: post #90

My Kazakh office mate is so angry over this. He swears there is going to be jihad.

That was the problem in the beginning though, waging a separatist war. It's why all this started when a lot of Uyghurs came back from Syria after fighting for ISIS. Do you think more of those bombing campaigns, taking hostages at police stations and throwing hand grenades out of cars into busy market bazaars will improve the situation for the people of Xinjiang?

are you assuming they should try to find independence with democratic means... in autocratic china?

Re: China Uighurs: A model's video gives a rare glimpse inside internment

#107

Post by lma21 » Wed, Aug 05, 2020, 9:54 AM UTC

Arbalest wrote: post #2

How does one compile this and other evidence to present to expatriate Mainlanders? Is it even worth it?

Why do we think expats would be interested in this? What's the point anyway?

Shouldn't we use this evidence instead to wake people up on the impacts of consumerism?

Didn't we allow China to become what it is today due to how we buy things (all things are made in China today?) and how companies are constantly seeking to reduce costs and in some cases irresponsibly? What have we said to those companies?

Disclaimer: I'm from Europe.

Re: China Uighurs: A model's video gives a rare glimpse inside internment

#108

Post by kiba » Wed, Aug 05, 2020, 10:00 AM UTC

phreack wrote: post #49

bmitc wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In a workplace environment, it is completely inappropriate. Second of all, why? What do you wish to discuss? What would you like to happen? What do these people have to do with it? If you're in the U.S., do you have anything useful to discuss regarding Guantanamo Bay and the many other U.S. black sites or the Mexican concentration camps run at the border? Do you think those are appropriate conversation pieces to brin…

There is a comparable situation with Americans, many people are unaware of the Tulsa massacre, and the reaction I've seen from people first hearing about it is mostly anger at it not being taught. Personally I'd be thankful to know of censored history, particularly if it is occurring and being censored right now, in a democracy.

We can learn those things. These are not actively surpassed.

Re: China Uighurs: A model's video gives a rare glimpse inside internment

#109

Post by dragonelite » Wed, Aug 05, 2020, 10:02 AM UTC

boomboomsubban wrote: post #66

As an American, as terrible as the Chinese actions against the Uighurs in Xinjiang are I still feel we should prioritize ending our nearly twenty year long war in neighboring Afghanistan. We've created millions of refugees, caused over a hundred thousand people to die, and committed numerous human rights violations. Yet the press coverage it gets mostly centers around how we dropped the "mother of all bombs" on them…

Take a look at the map of the world, then draw a line from Xinjiang to Iran, then from Iran to Moscow and Amsterdam then from Moscow to Berlin. Now imaging those lines being the guiding lines for the Belt and Road infrastructure projects to import and export goods into and from China.

Then see where the US and the "coalition of the willing" aka Anglo sphere has propped up chaos, invaded or placed military bases. From Afghanistan and Iraq the US can attack/sabotage infrastructure projects in the surrounding areas and the US hasn't really been secret about it.

The US is now in its imperial decline stage question is will it be a slow decline like the Byzantine empire or will it go down like the western roman empire. With going down i mean having to share the world with other players and not be the global hegemony.

I don't really need to know more, US has concentration camps on its southern borders and the EU is paying other nations to hold concentration camps for refugees. For the rest its all media framing, only time will tell how the world will develop in a post-covid19 and unipolar world. One thing i have learned is that the world is simpler and stone cold through a geopolitical lens.

Re: China Uighurs: A model's video gives a rare glimpse inside internment

#110

Post by throwaway_pdp09 » Wed, Aug 05, 2020, 10:03 AM UTC

dirtyid wrote: post #39

cycomanic wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These are some of the thoughts I've been having as well. On the other hand I'm actually generally interested in how this situation is communicated in China? How much and what do they know about it (note that they left China some years ago). I have to say I also find it chilling to say we can't discuss topics which have political implications for fear of it being construed of harassment. I have been frequently asked a…

XJ is interpreted as a counter-terrorism / COIN operation in China - aka War on Terror. Go look up Uyghur terrorism attacks in China on Global Terrorism DB, there's 100+ that stopped abruptly after XJ security architecture / Strike Hard campaign. Spreading to interior provinces including TianAnMen. Western MSM will report 2009 minority riots and probably stop there, but it was ongoing for until 2017s. Generally, you…

> what if XJ works?

It may well work. And mass sterilisation of women also works (https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/china-conducting-mass-steril...) in that being sterilised stops them having kids, which is the point. Most effective too!

What you're totally, frighteningly blind to is whether it's morally OK.