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Why do so few people major in computer science? (2017)

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Re: Why do so few people major in computer science? (2017)

#281

Post by User23 »

thu2111 wrote: post #267
User23 wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I believe this is one of the factors why women hesitate to enter the field You're right of course, but I'm going to spell out more clearly what you're saying for those of us here who don't get it. Women avoid computing science because it's populated by low status men and women are repulsed by low status men. Women in tech are either low status themselves, quickly move up into management, or exit the field. Don't ha…

That's a big leap - is it supported by anything? Primary school teaching and nursing are low status professions, and they're both dominated by women. If you're going to try and explain gender imbalances exclusively via reference to status you need to explain why it's not universally predictive. Lots of people have spent lots of time looking at this. What's predictive is working with systems vs people. Jobs that invol…

> Primary school teaching and nursing are low status professions, and they're both dominated by women. If you're going to try and explain gender imbalances exclusively via reference to status you need to explain why it's not universally predictive.

It's because men and women judge status differently. The statistics on revealed preference are clear: for example, in aggregate male doctors are happy to marry nurses, but female doctors are not happy to marry male nurses[1].

I understand that it's taboo to acknowledge double standards with respect to sex these days, but the data is solid and clear so I'm going to present it in the name of intellectual curiosity.

[1] https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2016-who-marries-whom/

Re: Why do so few people major in computer science? (2017)

#282

Post by chrisseaton »

jki275 wrote: post #276
chrisseaton wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Is the social status of computer scientists zero, or do computer scientists choose not to go into politics or other leadership positions? Well the outcome is the same either way. And if none of the institutions have any computer scientists in them now good luck to the first few people trying because they work on social connections. There's a social ceiling to computer scientists. I won't call it a glass ceiling eve…

General Nakasone is a lifelong intelligence officer with degrees in the field of intelligence, and he’s been in the intelligence and cyber warfare fields for decades. He’s not a computer scientist, but he’s also not an English teacher they just stuck in charge because he has a star. He’s highly qualified for that job, as are most people who have been assigned there. NSA does a lot of things that are not computer scie…

> He’s highly qualified for that job

He is, yes. And one of his essential qualifications needed for the job is being respected by the establishment because he's come through the establishment institutions and a profession respected by society with a combat action badge, rather than a technical contributor, which society does not respect.

Re: Why do so few people major in computer science? (2017)

#283

Post by racl101 »

thegeomaster wrote: post #232
saiya-jin wrote: post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Immature is the word that comes to my mind. And yes, that generally doesn't produce much respect (or attraction from other sex), does it

Right, a lot of FAANG companies' offices look like kindergartens. I get that all of the perks are "cool" to someone, but to me it's just embarrassing.

It also doesn't help that the perceived uniform of the programmer is a hoodie or an ironic t-shirt and chinos style of pants or similar regalia.

Like, that just doesn't look cool. I've been saying this for years. It's no wonder it doesn't look sexy nor command much respect. Especially not compared to a guy wearing a well tailored suit.

Sure, it feels good, but that's the same rationale for wearing crocs. You feel great until you look down and realize you're wearing crocs.

Re: Why do so few people major in computer science? (2017)

#285

Post by jeffdavis »

CS is a specialty. It is in high demand, but it's also centralizing. If you are in the periphery, it's easy to miss out on a lot of that demand.

It makes sense to reach out to build diverse CS talent, but I'm not sure that it makes sense to reach out for greater numbers.

Re: Why do so few people major in computer science? (2017)

#286

Post by commandlinefan »

jagger27 wrote: post #266
commandlinefan wrote: post #251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't think CS is a high social status field at all. This really struck home for me about 15 or so years ago. I was a "principal architect" at Travelocity, which meant that I was involved in driving the most complex technical decisions of the site. I felt like I was really doing well for myself - it was the top of the "tech track" there. One day, corporate asked people who had graduated from a set of local univer…

What the hell? How did you respond to that?

I guess there's a lot I could have said, but what I actually said was "oh", and left.

Re: Why do so few people major in computer science? (2017)

#287

Post by honkycat »

buran77 wrote: post #230
treeman79 wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Back in late 90s early 2000’s the best hires were the college dropouts. People who went to college to learn CS, got the basics. Then got frustrated and left. I used to compete with people who got masters at same college I dropped out of. I won easily, I was forced to hire various graduates and they were nearly useless.

> the best hires were the college dropouts I think this is survivor and selection bias. There were thousands of dropouts in every cycle and you'd never hear of most. For the ones that ended up being the best, school was probably the limiting factor rather than an enabler. I see some kids these days doing the same, justifying dropping out of school because Steve Jobs, Bill Gates, Mark Zuckerberg dropped out and they'r…

100%. Bill Gate and Mark Zuckerberg both grew up fantastically wealthy. Their decision making process should be different than the average person.

Gate's parents had friends in high places, went to high quality schools, and he was a trust fund kid. He was in no danger of failing and didn't need to worry about money. He could always just go back.

Zuckerberg had a private tutor. They had basically already had a college education by the time they graduated high school.

Jobs was a smart, hard working dude who was in the right place at the right time. America in the 70s is a VERY different place than America now. The ladder has been pulled up.

Trying to emulate that is foolish.

Also, since we are throwing around anecdotes like "I find my untrained co-workers to be better than my trained co-workers": I have never worked with someone who does not have a college degree that I was happy with. It does not have to be in CS. I am well aware there are counter examples, but that has been my observation.

Re: Why do so few people major in computer science? (2017)

#288

Post by alexashka »

chrisseaton wrote: post #211
logicchains wrote: post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>we don't get fancy titles Some people get titles like "code ninja", although I suppose "fancy" isn't really the right word for that.

Yes we make ourselves look like clowns rather than professionals. It's terrible I don't know why we're doing this to ourselves.

Because there is no 'we' doing it to 'ourselves' :)

If you want there to be a 'we', that would be called a workers' union.

'Professional' is when you have a strong union that forces companies to treat you as a human being, something they'd much rather not bother with.

Re: Why do so few people major in computer science? (2017)

#289

Post by [deleted] »

alexashka wrote: post #288
chrisseaton wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes we make ourselves look like clowns rather than professionals. It's terrible I don't know why we're doing this to ourselves.

Because there is no 'we' doing it to 'ourselves' :) If you want there to be a 'we', that would be called a workers' union. 'Professional' is when you have a strong union that forces companies to treat you as a human being, something they'd much rather not bother with.

[deleted]

Re: Why do so few people major in computer science? (2017)

#290

Post by subsubzero »

A few observations I have seen(US Based):

- In college there were basically no women in any of my classes, like 1 or 2 in a class of 30-40. Not having an entire gender being interested in a field(generally speaking) makes numbers overall very low.

- In a Java class I took in college, it was standing room only for the first two sessions, after 3 weeks the class was 70% reduced, by the end of the class it was about 25% of its original size. CS is hard, lets be honest(for most people), to excel you have to love it or be mathematically inclined.

- People, when looking at a career don't see CS as long term choice, they hear of burnout due to extreme overwork, and blatant ageism when you hit 40's. I asked a friend who went into the medical field about CS and they said they want to work into their 60's-70's and didn't want to be forced out of work due to age bias.

- Most engineers don't have much 'clout' in a organization that isn't a pure tech company, I have been solicited by GS and other hedge funds but always pass as I know I will always be 2nd fiddle to finance folks/business majors.

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