Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Why do so few people major in computer science? (2017)

danwang.co

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

141–150 of 452 posts

Re: Why do so few people major in computer science? (2017)

#141

Post by chosenbreed37 »

radford-neal wrote: post #126
ghaff wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That pretty much lays out one of the more standard explanations for why more women don't go into CS. Things arguably changed in the early 80s with the rise of PCs and gaming. While programming certainly existed before that, it wasn't something that most kids were exposed to in high school and CS curricula in general were heavily theory oriented and often in the Math department. Today, if you want to be a mechanical e…

Could this actually be good, or at least quite understandable? (I'm not actually sure whether you intend your comment to just be descriptive, or also judgemental.) Does anyone expect college music programs to be easily accessible to people who didn't play an instrument, or sing in a choir, during high school? Similarly for dance, and drama, and art. And if you're right that mechanical engineering schools no longer ex…

You're right in that music programs demand a minimum level of proficiency with the chosen musical instrument. Many (if not all) have auditions as well.

I would say the programming is a bit different. It is true that someone who has been working computers before they start college is likely to do better in the programming assignments. I suspect in many cases they'll be bored. They might finish in 30 minutes what others would do in 3 hours. It's a gap but in the grand scheme of things it's not that significant. Now look at someone who has been taking violin lessons and exams for 8 years compared to someone who has never touched. The gap is huge. Perhaps of greater importance is the synaptic pathways that have been developed in the musicians brain coupled with the muscle memory and intuition developed over a prolonged period of time. I'm not saying that the programming knowledge acquired before college is worthless but that much of it can be acquired by new comers into the field over a relatively short period of time.

As to the toxicity of the high school environment I wouldn't be able to say. At college I certainly encountered the "nerd" times. As far as I remember they were not toxic at all. If anything many were either shy or generally awkward in social settings. Otherwise they were great to hang out with.

Re: Why do so few people major in computer science? (2017)

#142

Post by x87678r »

CS is a bifurcated world. Yes there are very well paid people in FANG companies and in Bay Area start ups. The reality is that 90% of IT people are working in a cubical making bug fixes to TPS reports in nondescript corporates where they're just another cost center - until they hit their forties when it gets tough to find a job.

Most people see that reality.

Re: Why do so few people major in computer science? (2017)

#143

Post by kazinator »

A CS degree program isn't something you can get into by knocking on the door and saying, "Hi, I'd like to study CS because there are well-paid jobs in Silicon Valley".

Moreover, university departments tend to only tighten their entrance requirements with increased interest in a field.

Article also conflates "earned degree" with "majored".

Re: Why do so few people major in computer science? (2017)

#144

Post by dr-detroit »

chrisco255 wrote: post #34
buzzy_hacker wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t know how old you are but this is not the case at all among my age group, recent college grads. If you say you work at Google, to continue your example, people are definitely impressed and think you’re very smart. Pretty much all of my friends and their friends are not in software engineering and that’s still the case.

I think people are impressed by the big names, but not so much if you work for an enterprise SaaS provider.

All the big names in the USA strictly hire H1B visa recipients so there is no concept of a big name tech jobs you can write javascript in kansas city texas or california or you can work for the CIA at facebook and government jobs like this have never carried high prestige.

Re: Why do so few people major in computer science? (2017)

#145

Post by manfredo »

jabbernotty wrote: post #118
thebean11 wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> not even good pay outside of a couple of tech giants in the USA That's a huge exaggeration. In what other field can a bright kid take a 12 week bootcamp and get a job that pays $80k?

> That's a huge exaggeration. In what other field can a bright kid take a 12 week bootcamp and get a job that pays $80k? They did specify "outside of a couple of tech giants in the USA". Here in Europe, €30K would already be a good starting salary. Personally, 10 years in, I don't expect to reach €80k.

My first tech job wasn't event at a FAANG company and I made $110k right out of college. My next job was at a ~1,000 person startup and my salary was bumped up to over $160k.

Maybe it's a Europe vs US thing but it's definitely not the case that salary is poor outside of tech giants.

Re: Why do so few people major in computer science? (2017)

#146

Post by treeman79 »

buran77 wrote: post #75
raxxorrax wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not even mad that the social status is zero to be honest, but I think you are completely correct. People do think that I am rich and can do math though, but that is about it. I think my education was horizontal enough to have an opinion to things outside my field too, but it is generally disregarded because I am just the computer guy. I know more about medicine than the common doctor knows about computers though…

I think you hit the nail on the head. On one hand so many successful IT people have no formal CS training or related degrees, which is less likely in other fields. This is exactly how a lot of people end up being good in this field. The barrier for entry is low so people get to hone their skills while doing the work. Compare this to medical doctors where the barrier for entry is years and years of study, making it mo…

Back in late 90s early 2000’s the best hires were the college dropouts. People who went to college to learn CS, got the basics. Then got frustrated and left.

I used to compete with people who got masters at same college I dropped out of. I won easily, I was forced to hire various graduates and they were nearly useless.

Re: Why do so few people major in computer science? (2017)

#147

Post by [deleted] »

jbob2000 wrote: post #135
hhhhhhhjjjjjjju wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been "programming" for almost 20 years. I'm 39 -- I'm completely self-taught (as in no bootcamps or any other formal education related to CS) and have never had an issue finding employment. I can easily switch between about 6 programming languages, multiple scripting languages, run systems and bang out algorithms. I have lead teams and have also worked as a contractor for several years. At what point will I face…

At 39, you are right at that tipping point where job offers mysteriously start drying up. I'm not speaking from first hand experience, I've only been doing this for 10 years since graduating, but this is what I regularly hear from older programmers. That's not to say that it isn't possible to survive past 40 as a programmer, my point was just that this is a deterrence for getting a Computer Science degree. Think abou…

[deleted]

Re: Why do so few people major in computer science? (2017)

#148

Post by rabuse »

squeaky-clean wrote: post #110
chrisseaton wrote: post #4

I don't think CS is a high social status field at all . You're deluding yourselves. Outside of our peers also in the industry nobody cares that you're a staff engineer at Google. Absolutely nobody. They'll assume you're doing IT work like the characters in the IT Crowd if they even bother to think about it at all and haven't already walked away. Here's a concrete example to make it really obvious. How many computer s…

> Outside of our peers also in the industry nobody cares that you're a staff engineer at Google. Absolutely nobody. Not true at all. They get excited because you can build their amazing app idea. It's just like facebook but for... Oh no, you won't? Oh okay. Well let me give you my card in case you change your mind.

I've had this encounter so many times in the wild, it's insane. "Well, what can you build?" is typically the question after mentioning you write software.

Re: Why do so few people major in computer science? (2017)

#149

Post by easterncalculus »

TheOtherHobbes wrote: post #81
NalNezumi wrote: post #48

I've always seen the same pattern in College decision: self-projection. That is, a combination of what they know and what they think they can do/like . Most people choosing Uni choose from what they know. Majority of young people know little about anything CS or nerdy; They often know the end product (computers, phones, apps) but very little about the people working on it. Compare that to doctors, managers, Wallstree…

CS types in the movies are basically magicians. Something needs to happen, they open a laptop, they type away furiously, there's a cutaway which shows them frowning, then a red dialog box on the screen turns green, and the thing happens. It's hard to get from that to the reality developing CRUD apps. There may be some drama, but arguments about which framework to use are not usually very cinematic.

I think part of this is the limitations of interest that come from a film. You can write a whole movie about an electrical engineer building robots and visually show the struggles along the way. If you compare that to a software engineer searching for another fucking memory leak or something then it's just not going to be as visually interesting.

An interesting thing about this is that I think it's easier to show in print. I can read a book about a maverick developer and have it describe the errors and the trials and tribulations and it isn't as slow by comparison. Hollywood then feels the need to emphasize what they show with wild CGI, which is a whole other issue when it comes to entertaining portrayals. I think the only realistic portrayal I've seen onscreen is Mr. Robot, and even that goes into fiction when it's most needed for the plot.

Re: Why do so few people major in computer science? (2017)

#150

Post by jjice »

ghaff wrote: post #64
cs702 wrote: post #51

There's one other possible, additional reason. I recently asked a 17-year-old high school senior who is heading to college what she's planning to study, and she said it would be mathematics, biomedical engineering, or some other kind of engineering. She's self-motivated -- says she will be studying multi-variate calculus, PDEs, and abstract algebra on her own this summer. She maxed out her high school math curriculum…

That pretty much lays out one of the more standard explanations for why more women don't go into CS. Things arguably changed in the early 80s with the rise of PCs and gaming. While programming certainly existed before that, it wasn't something that most kids were exposed to in high school and CS curricula in general were heavily theory oriented and often in the Math department. Today, if you want to be a mechanical e…

> Today, if you want to be a mechanical engineering major there's no expectation that you lived in a machine shop all through high school or otherwise spent all your spare time in hobbies related to your college major.

Really good point. As someone who grew up with computers and programming, despite loving all of it, there is a bit of pressure to continue to work on side projects constantly. In reality, I don't think that the majority of developers do (at least in my experience with coworkers), but maybe it's more of a vocal minority. Nevertheless, that pressure is still there.

My mechanical and electrical engineering classmates work on a side project from time to time, but it does seem like there is a lot less of a focus on lots of projects being completed.

Post reply on HN