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Why do so few people major in computer science? (2017)

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Re: Why do so few people major in computer science? (2017)

#211

Post by chrisseaton »

logicchains wrote: post #206
corpMaverick wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't think CS is a high social status field at all. I totally agree with you. I believe this is one of the factors why women hesitate to enter the field. They are more socially aware than we are. Also, even in IT areas, technical capable people are relegated. We get good salaries but we don't get fancy titles. We are the only profession that allows to be managed by outsiders. Financial firms(and finance departme…

>we don't get fancy titles Some people get titles like "code ninja", although I suppose "fancy" isn't really the right word for that.

Yes we make ourselves look like clowns rather than professionals. It's terrible I don't know why we're doing this to ourselves.

Re: Why do so few people major in computer science? (2017)

#212

Post by kazinator »

karmelapple wrote: post #67
Cthulhu_ wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is the social status of computer scientists zero, or do computer scientists choose not to go into politics or other leadership positions? I suspect it's the latter [anecdotal; opinion; citation needed]. CS people are a tribe on their own (if I may generalize); I've not met anyone with an interest in participating in politics. They have strong opinions on politics, but not to the point where they're willing to represe…

Scientists - not just CS, but biologists, chemists, etc. - are not in elected leadership positions very much. I agree they are frequently not willing to represent. But again - why? A few opinions: * scientists (computer, life, or otherwise) do not think their talents are best used in making public policy. There are so many other ways those talents and intelligence could be used * perhaps worse pay (though the benefit…

An honest scientist abhors it, but those who fudge results have their place in politics.

Re: Why do so few people major in computer science? (2017)

#213

Post by hhhhhhhjjjjjjju »

jbob2000 wrote: post #135
hhhhhhhjjjjjjju wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been "programming" for almost 20 years. I'm 39 -- I'm completely self-taught (as in no bootcamps or any other formal education related to CS) and have never had an issue finding employment. I can easily switch between about 6 programming languages, multiple scripting languages, run systems and bang out algorithms. I have lead teams and have also worked as a contractor for several years. At what point will I face…

At 39, you are right at that tipping point where job offers mysteriously start drying up. I'm not speaking from first hand experience, I've only been doing this for 10 years since graduating, but this is what I regularly hear from older programmers. That's not to say that it isn't possible to survive past 40 as a programmer, my point was just that this is a deterrence for getting a Computer Science degree. Think abou…

I have to disagree with what you've heard -- I know far more than the other developers I work with when it comes to both old technology (which is still extremely relevant) and new (such as react etc) -- the bootcamp devs I've worked with have a barebones understanding of coding and regularly make massive mistakes that cost companies money. Fresh graduates are no better, nor are outsourced developers.

When it comes to jobs mysteriously drying up: you're talking about ageism. Thanks to covid-19 almost every offer I currently have on the table is remote, and I have 6 years of remote experience under my belt already... I predict that ageism will start to fade along with traditional office work. At the very least I can fudge my resume and make it look like I am younger with less experience if absolutely necessary.

Furthermore I have known many over 60 programmers who have no issue getting a job. Ageism might be an issue in silicone valley and might prohibit one from getting a gig at a new start up, but I believe this problem is overblown. I think that some older devs just fail to keep up with the industry, lose their passion and blame their personal failures on ageism.

Re: Why do so few people major in computer science? (2017)

#214

Post by buboard »

_xnmw wrote: post #165
chrisseaton wrote: post #4

I don't think CS is a high social status field at all . You're deluding yourselves. Outside of our peers also in the industry nobody cares that you're a staff engineer at Google. Absolutely nobody. They'll assume you're doing IT work like the characters in the IT Crowd if they even bother to think about it at all and haven't already walked away. Here's a concrete example to make it really obvious. How many computer s…

I found this out the hard way (that the social status of computer scientists outside of the Valley is nearly zero) in my late twenties, when I was starting to look to get married. I'm now changing careers. I realized that women (and society in general) cared absolutely zero about my profession except for the fact that it made good money. Even if you do become obscenely wealthy, you rarely garner any real respect in m…

Musk is a physicist though, and i m pretty sure Musk is a frequent subject even when politicians speak. They have not reached out to the public in ways that Rowling or Obama have, so it's natural that the public feels them distant. Bill gates earns some respect for his low-key activism but he s not too prominent either. Scientists who reach out can garner respect, Thatcher was a Chemist, Merkel is a physicist. It's true however that the non-rich comp.scientists are virtually unknown or known for unrelated reasons (e.g. Turing).

A lot of it is just grooming: Lawyers (and doctors) are groomed and almost expected to have socially prominent aspirations. Programmers have not but it's not like they really asked for it, most tend(ed) to be politically aloof.

Re: Why do so few people major in computer science? (2017)

#215

Post by seanmcdirmid »

mlthoughts2018 wrote: post #167
treeman79 wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Back in late 90s early 2000’s the best hires were the college dropouts. People who went to college to learn CS, got the basics. Then got frustrated and left. I used to compete with people who got masters at same college I dropped out of. I won easily, I was forced to hire various graduates and they were nearly useless.

This myth that dropouts / bootcamp grads / self-taught people form some hallowed overachieving group needs to stop. There are plenty of talented people from many walks of life, but statistically speaking, higher education is correlated with higher achievement and productivity in computer science. I can’t even believe it would be controversial. More advanced training and more network effects obviously lead to more opp…

The diamond in the rough formula can work if scouting from lower tier universities, especially in countries where competition to get into top tier universities is fierce (eg China).

Re: Why do so few people major in computer science? (2017)

#216

Post by corpMaverick »

whichdan wrote: post #177
corpMaverick wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't think CS is a high social status field at all. I totally agree with you. I believe this is one of the factors why women hesitate to enter the field. They are more socially aware than we are. Also, even in IT areas, technical capable people are relegated. We get good salaries but we don't get fancy titles. We are the only profession that allows to be managed by outsiders. Financial firms(and finance departme…

Please don't assume everyone on HN is male.

> They are more socially aware than we are

Sorry for the confusion. We as in "We men" not as in "We HN readers". I was just speaking as a man.

Re: Why do so few people major in computer science? (2017)

#217

Post by na85 »

lobotryas wrote: post #193
na85 wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>They are more socially aware than we are. Is there any evidence that women are more likely to choose careers with high social prestige? I find this doubtful, since in North America at least the traditionally female-dominated job sectors seem to be the ones with lower social prestige. Compare the prestige of a nurse with a cardiac surgeon: which is more stereotypically male?

You are saying nurses, teachers and social workers have “low social prestige”? People worship the ground these folks walk on for their “selfless sacrifice” and what-not.

>People worship the ground these folks walk on for their “selfless sacrifice” and what-not.

People in Canada at least don't do more than pay lip service to those professions. They're remunerated poorly and yes, they have low social prestige.

If you wanna pick up a girl at a bar, do you lie and tell her you're a nurse? No, you tell her you're a cardiologist.

Nobody really respects nurses and teachers. Not saying I like it, but that's how it is.

Re: Why do so few people major in computer science? (2017)

#218

Post by rocqua »

karmelapple wrote: post #67
Cthulhu_ wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is the social status of computer scientists zero, or do computer scientists choose not to go into politics or other leadership positions? I suspect it's the latter [anecdotal; opinion; citation needed]. CS people are a tribe on their own (if I may generalize); I've not met anyone with an interest in participating in politics. They have strong opinions on politics, but not to the point where they're willing to represe…

Scientists - not just CS, but biologists, chemists, etc. - are not in elected leadership positions very much. I agree they are frequently not willing to represent. But again - why? A few opinions: * scientists (computer, life, or otherwise) do not think their talents are best used in making public policy. There are so many other ways those talents and intelligence could be used * perhaps worse pay (though the benefit…

Another relevant factor I think, is the kind of challenges you must overcome in politics vs technology.

A scientist probably finds the challenges to overcome in technology much more intellectually stimulating than she finds the challenges in politics. Which makes sense because people tend to get good at things they enjoy, and scientists need to get good at overcoming challenges much like technological challenges.

Re: Why do so few people major in computer science? (2017)

#219

Post by thaumasiotes »

drewg123 wrote: post #107
non-entity wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the big companies treat you like a leper unless you went through a few chosen schools. I was under the impression that they didnt care about your background, but you had to slave away on leetcode to have a chance to pass the interviews.

I agree with the GP. I had a similar experience at SUNY Buffalo in around the same time. I terms of working for a FAANG, in order to pass the interview, you have to first get the interview. If you attend Stanford, Berkeley, MIT, etc, FAANG's will have career fair booths, and lots of other opportunity for internships and networking. You will be at the top of the pile and you're almost guaranteed a look. Contrast that…

> Some of the smartest people I know I met there. They definitely weren't the rule, but a lot went on to get PhD's from places like Stanford and Caltech. So its not like big state schools have no qualified candidates. Its just hard to get the FAANGs to see that.

If you evaluate candidates yourself, you don't need to be interested in their credentials.

That's not the point of an interview. The problem isn't that SUNY has no qualified candidates, it's that the hiring process doesn't distinguish the qualified ones from the unqualified ones.

Re: Why do so few people major in computer science? (2017)

#220

Post by User23 »

corpMaverick wrote: post #169
chrisseaton wrote: post #4

I don't think CS is a high social status field at all . You're deluding yourselves. Outside of our peers also in the industry nobody cares that you're a staff engineer at Google. Absolutely nobody. They'll assume you're doing IT work like the characters in the IT Crowd if they even bother to think about it at all and haven't already walked away. Here's a concrete example to make it really obvious. How many computer s…

> I don't think CS is a high social status field at all. I totally agree with you. I believe this is one of the factors why women hesitate to enter the field. They are more socially aware than we are. Also, even in IT areas, technical capable people are relegated. We get good salaries but we don't get fancy titles. We are the only profession that allows to be managed by outsiders. Financial firms(and finance departme…

> I believe this is one of the factors why women hesitate to enter the field

You're right of course, but I'm going to spell out more clearly what you're saying for those of us here who don't get it. Women avoid computing science because it's populated by low status men and women are repulsed by low status men. Women in tech are either low status themselves, quickly move up into management, or exit the field.

Don't hate me for saying this, anyone who is intellectually honest can observe that it's true.

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