Advice to new managers: don't joke about firing people • Hacker News Board

Re: Advice to new managers: don't joke about firing people

#341

Post by Mc_Big_G » Wed, Jun 10, 2020, 7:28 PM UTC

dang wrote: post #302

Mc_Big_G wrote: post #255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The downvotes refute your assertion. You know exactly what my point is.

Please don't take HN threads into flamewar. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html Edit: would you please stop posting unsubstantive and/or flamebait comments to HN? It looks like you've done it repeatedly, and it's really not what this site is for. If you'd review the guidelines and take the intended spirit more to heart here, we'd be grateful.

How do I delete my account and all my comments?

Re: Advice to new managers: don't joke about firing people

#342

Post by goatinaboat » Wed, Jun 10, 2020, 7:33 PM UTC

Kaze404 wrote: post #319

asdfman123 wrote: post #249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've discovered when there's a power dynamic going on between two people, it's usually not a very good idea to pretend like that doesn't exist -- despite the fact that it is my natural inclination to joke about it and downplay it. Instead, I find it's better to be kind, take things seriously and treat people with respect. Yes, the power dynamic exists. Yes, I believe it's somewhat unfair and I wish society wasn't str…

I agree with this. I recently had an honestly disastrous experience at a job because we tried to pretend that power dynamic doesn't exist. My boss (the CTO) considered me a friend and vice versa, but that made every work interaction so awkward (for me at least) because I could never tell whether we were talking as friends, teammates or employer-employee. I attribute this as both of us being incredibly young (lower 20…

I could never tell whether we were talking as friends, teammates or employer-employee

There’s an old saying, if your boss if your friend, he’s either a bad boss or a bad friend.

Re: Advice to new managers: don't joke about firing people

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Post by pc86 » Wed, Jun 10, 2020, 7:34 PM UTC

BuckRogers wrote: post #273

wpietri wrote: post #244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You must work at a pretty healthy company. Because those checks also exist at unhealthy companies, but there managers just know how to work the system. E.g., I know somebody whose manager was pushed out for political reasons. Their first meeting with their new boss, the one who did the pushing, was a 90-minute series of accusations and critiques. In the second meeting, they were presented with a letter documenting th…

And that is why I want a union or professional organization. That level of nonsense needs a mechanism to resist with. How many lives and marriages, families suffered for political moves mostly for nothing by some lunatic.

I would rather live with the risk of a political firing than make it unnecessarily difficult to fire poor performers.

Re: Advice to new managers: don't joke about firing people

#344

Post by P-ala-din » Wed, Jun 10, 2020, 7:39 PM UTC

bradjohnson wrote: post #335

P-ala-din wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"While early research focused on the prevalence among high-achieving women, impostor syndrome has been recognized to affect both men and women equally." "The researchers concluded that the women who participated in this study experienced impostor phenomenon more so than the men who participated." am I misparsing this sentence? how can both be true?

I may be wrong because it is worded unclearly, but I think the first is referring to the magnitude by which men and women are affected, i.e. those that are affected, be they men or women, experience the same impact to their self esteem/worth. The second is referring to the fact that women are more frequently affected by it.

That makes sense, thanks. I was misled by the use of "prevalence" in the first part of the sentence.

Re: Advice to new managers: don't joke about firing people

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Post by pininja » Wed, Jun 10, 2020, 7:40 PM UTC

TheBlight wrote: post #179

momokoko wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> is quite possible that someone you manage doesn't know where they stand with you Higher level performers tend to disproportionately believe then need to improve so they tend to take group jokes or threats of termination much more seriously than underperformers. Be very very careful making groups statements and jokes about performance and firings. It’s a fast track to losing high performers who leave because they st…

Do you have a citation for this phenomenon you claim wrt higher level performers?

This discussion revolves around advice, which set my expectations that these are claims based on experience instead of something that can be cited. If you don’t agree because you’ve had a contradicting experience, that could be a valuable addition to the discussion. It’s also fair to not adopt the advice if you want a study and one cannot be provided.

I’ve experienced the feeling the grandparent post shared.

Re: Advice to new managers: don't joke about firing people

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Post by whatok » Wed, Jun 10, 2020, 7:40 PM UTC

sudhirj wrote: post #176

undefined1 wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know you're specifying amateur comedy, but it's not so clear what's up or down. A lot of people think Dave Chappelle punches down, but is he really?[1] "Comedy is subjective, and it's offensive, it really is. And people are making these imaginary rules, like, 'Comedy can punch up, but it can't punch down.' No, comedy punches down too sometimes, sorry. You don't make up the rules for my business without consulting a…

This gets interesting, especially with Dave Chapelle, but professional comedians like Dave and Seinfeld etc. have one very specific attribute that allows them to punch up, sideways and even down – everyone always knows they're joking (sometimes even when they're not). And comedians have no power of their own, so they can speak truth to power as much as they want. The problem is only when someone with power punches do…

> The rules about comedy don't apply to professional comedians, because you know if they break them they're still trying to funny.

I don't think this is true in the modern age. Countless non-established or up and coming comedians and adjacents have gotten fired for one-off remarks in old material or social media posts. If there's a constantly evolving list (which no one person on Earth is completely aware of in its entirety because of constant evolution) of "problematic" topics that will get you fired, all you will end up with is bad comedy.

More than 30 years after its release, Eddie Murphy was basically forced to apologize for Raw; undisputed one of the greatest standup specials by one of the greatest comedians of all-time. People were calling for a boycott of Netflix because of Chappelle and Seinfeld gets shit for his remarks all the time. If these were up-and-coming comedians, they would not have a career.

Re: Advice to new managers: don't joke about firing people

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Post by [deleted] » Wed, Jun 10, 2020, 7:42 PM UTC

P-ala-din wrote: post #333

xapata wrote: post #314

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Not all foo are bar." "This foo is bar." Both statements can be true simultaneously.

Of course, that's true but I can't map that to the statements at hand. I understood it to be: P(W) == P(M) and P(W) > P(M)

[deleted]

Re: Advice to new managers: don't joke about firing people

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Post by disambiguation » Wed, Jun 10, 2020, 7:42 PM UTC

momokoko wrote: post #141

kemiller2002 wrote: post #3

This is sound advice. You have a significant amount of control over people's lives as a manager, and that should be treated with a level of respect. You have no idea how people feel, and it is quite possible that someone you manage doesn't know where they stand with you. At times that is more than enough to cause them stress and even convince them to look elsewhere. Work is stressful enough, and you don't need to add…

> is quite possible that someone you manage doesn't know where they stand with you Higher level performers tend to disproportionately believe then need to improve so they tend to take group jokes or threats of termination much more seriously than underperformers. Be very very careful making groups statements and jokes about performance and firings. It’s a fast track to losing high performers who leave because they st…

i think you have the causality reversed

people who take the risks seriously will try harder, thus become higher performers

Re: Advice to new managers: don't joke about firing people

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Post by djsumdog » Wed, Jun 10, 2020, 7:43 PM UTC

CapriciousCptl wrote: post #256

zeroxfe wrote: post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This disregards the power imbalance -- lots of employees (especially junior ones) are not comfortable being so firm with their managers.

Part of life is tactfully dealing with people who have power over you. It’s not very comfortable for anyone.

I've always found the power dynamic issue troublesome. So often it can be turned into "Well they might have consented, but they really didn't truly have the power to because of the power imbalance."

There might be some truth in that in a purely psychological sense, but it also is a massive legal issue. Do you really have agency as an employee, and what are those limits?

Say a manager gets into a relationship with a subordinate. Yes, it's a bad idea, of course, but both of your emotions get away from you and you say you love each other. If things go south, could the subordinate say he or she didn't feel like they had a choice?

Heidi Matthews is a Canadian law professor who asked this in relation to the metoo movement and Monica Lewinsky. During the 90s, the debate was over Clinton lying, but no one ever challenged that Lewinsky consented. But today, people retroactively look back at that time and ask if she had the ability to consent.

Maybe if US unemployment was setup like other countries where you could leave a job and still get on the dole, there's less of a dynamic because you could "just leave" (even though it makes it more difficult to get hired later).

I dunno; there are a whole lot of deep factors here. Life is about learning from doing things that are uncomfortable and asserting agency when you feel like you have none.

Re: Advice to new managers: don't joke about firing people

#350

Post by whatok » Wed, Jun 10, 2020, 7:44 PM UTC

pjc50 wrote: post #203

undefined1 wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know you're specifying amateur comedy, but it's not so clear what's up or down. A lot of people think Dave Chappelle punches down, but is he really?[1] "Comedy is subjective, and it's offensive, it really is. And people are making these imaginary rules, like, 'Comedy can punch up, but it can't punch down.' No, comedy punches down too sometimes, sorry. You don't make up the rules for my business without consulting a…

The thing about punching down is that, because of the power differential, you don't hear back when you've gone too far. You may even get the victim smiling and laughing along with you, for their own safety. But people remember, and talk among themselves, and your name becomes known, and maybe one day there's a huge backlash. And the backlash looks disproportionate, but should really be considered in proportion to the…

Name one notable comedian who has made their career from solely "punching down" and not from being genuinely funny. This is a borderline non-existent problem that has its own self-filtering mechanism; no one is going to pay money to see a set of someone solely "punching down".