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Advice to new managers: don't joke about firing people

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Re: Advice to new managers: don't joke about firing people

#241

Post by Non24Throw »

mjayhn wrote: post #177
Non24Throw wrote: post #143

Early in my career, a manager once had me repeat to him that I would be terminated if I failed to do X, like I was a 5-year-old. X was referring to a technical implementation detail that he had zero understanding of. He read something in a blog post I guess. My reaction was to act like it was a fun joke or something. But inside, I absolutely loathed him every second of every day until I quit, and now I take great sat…

> To expand on the article’s point, I think the biggest thing young managers don’t understand is that people are going to be insincere to you as a basic showing of respect and a basic desire for career preservation. They’re going to smile and appear to enjoy you and laugh at your jokes and seem ok with everything, much moreso than they otherwise would. I know it's hard and it took me until my 30s with a long career b…

Your perception of the risks associated with providing that feedback isn’t the same as everyone else’s.

When you’re young, and especially if you come from a lower income background (where authority is treated as an absolute, and abuse of authority is generally more common and accepted), it can seem very risky and feel very unacceptable to give this kind of feedback to your manager.

It’s easy for me to agree with you now, but there are very different feelings about this across different backgrounds and cultures, and there are plenty of managers who would react harshly to this.

Re: Advice to new managers: don't joke about firing people

#242

Post by cambalache »

mjayhn wrote: post #177
Non24Throw wrote: post #143

Early in my career, a manager once had me repeat to him that I would be terminated if I failed to do X, like I was a 5-year-old. X was referring to a technical implementation detail that he had zero understanding of. He read something in a blog post I guess. My reaction was to act like it was a fun joke or something. But inside, I absolutely loathed him every second of every day until I quit, and now I take great sat…

> To expand on the article’s point, I think the biggest thing young managers don’t understand is that people are going to be insincere to you as a basic showing of respect and a basic desire for career preservation. They’re going to smile and appear to enjoy you and laugh at your jokes and seem ok with everything, much moreso than they otherwise would. I know it's hard and it took me until my 30s with a long career b…

That is a good feeling but it is career suicide. Adulation and compliance is a sweet currency and if you dont use it (it is OK) other people will and they will be moved ahead of you time and time again.

Re: Advice to new managers: don't joke about firing people

#243

Post by noisy_boy »

mjayhn wrote: post #177
Non24Throw wrote: post #143

Early in my career, a manager once had me repeat to him that I would be terminated if I failed to do X, like I was a 5-year-old. X was referring to a technical implementation detail that he had zero understanding of. He read something in a blog post I guess. My reaction was to act like it was a fun joke or something. But inside, I absolutely loathed him every second of every day until I quit, and now I take great sat…

> To expand on the article’s point, I think the biggest thing young managers don’t understand is that people are going to be insincere to you as a basic showing of respect and a basic desire for career preservation. They’re going to smile and appear to enjoy you and laugh at your jokes and seem ok with everything, much moreso than they otherwise would. I know it's hard and it took me until my 30s with a long career b…

Sometimes you have responsibilities and you can't risk the job on the off chance that your feedback hits the wrong buttons.

Re: Advice to new managers: don't joke about firing people

#244

Post by wpietri »

dudul wrote: post #42
kemiller2002 wrote: post #3

This is sound advice. You have a significant amount of control over people's lives as a manager, and that should be treated with a level of respect. You have no idea how people feel, and it is quite possible that someone you manage doesn't know where they stand with you. At times that is more than enough to cause them stress and even convince them to look elsewhere. Work is stressful enough, and you don't need to add…

Do you have significant amount of control? Maybe I've been lucky to be part of mostly healthy organizations, but even managers have to justify/explain decisions. Either be for termination, compensation adjustment, reassigning to a different team, etc. I always had to document and explain why I thought an employee deserved a raise, or should not get a bonus, etc. Even as a director with ~20 reports I don't have unlimi…

You must work at a pretty healthy company. Because those checks also exist at unhealthy companies, but there managers just know how to work the system.

E.g., I know somebody whose manager was pushed out for political reasons. Their first meeting with their new boss, the one who did the pushing, was a 90-minute series of accusations and critiques. In the second meeting, they were presented with a letter documenting the critiques and their poor response. Their third meeting was a no-notice, no-severance layoff and a security escort to the door. It turned out the people "laid off" were all the ones hired by the old boss, even though the company was hiring for the same roles at the same time. So the new boss was just cleaning house, making sure the people in key positions were loyal to him.

But it was all documented and justified.

Re: Advice to new managers: don't joke about firing people

#245

Post by Grimm1 »

perl4ever wrote: post #234
throwanem wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's nothing subtle about that kind of behavior. Contemptible, yes, but not subtle.

You could call it transparency. It's vastly better to have someone make you aware of what's up than blindside you or gaslight you by giving contradictory information/demands.

Or you know, have a meeting where your manager directly discusses the issue with you like an adult.

Re: Advice to new managers: don't joke about firing people

#246

Post by austincheney »

Perhaps the greatest reason why joking about job security is so bad is that it forces an irreversible wedge between the employee and the employer or team.

If a person believes their job is in peril they lose focus of their work and shift focus into matters of personal security. People tend to over emphasize the nature of their employment as a matter of personal identity, accomplishment, and life progress. When those things are in peril they become more important problem to fix than their assigned responsibilities, work/life balance, or even familial relationships which can snowball into further problems. While this is frequently more a matter of personal vanity than finances the problem is still there and it’s socially contagious, which is toxic.

Counter intuitively I have found many people are less emotionally troubled about losing their jobs when the harm is purely financial. That isn’t to say it is free of stress, but rather there are fewer panic moments.

Re: Advice to new managers: don't joke about firing people

#247

Post by apocalyptic0n3 »

Even if you're not a manager, do not underestimate your position. I'm on a small team (A few years ago, back before I had even half my current responsibilities, I was sitting with one of the other devs trying to figure out a bug that made it into production and they asked "How bad is it?" and I offhandedly/sarcastically said "You're going to need a new job" without even looking at them. At that point, those kinds of things were pretty commonly said by devs to one another. But a few hours later, I got a frantic message on Slack asking if they had been fired. They had apparently spent the last 3 hours in a state of high tension thinking they'd be fired by EOD. At that point, I realized my role was ambiguous enough that I couldn't joke about it anymore.

And if you're in a position like me where you have a lot of responsibilities and influence, you need to be aware of how you interact with other teams too. I've had instances where I've gone over to talk to someone in marketing about something and they jokingly ask "What I'd do this time?" and I'll respond with "You're in trouble" and immediately go into what I wanted to talk about, which in most cases is a greeting you'd ignore as obviously ridiculous, especially when followed up with me asking questions about how to best optimize something to help you do your job. But I've had it happen more times than I care to admit where they'll interrupt me a few seconds later and ask if they're going to be fired.

Moral of the story: If you are at any elevated position, never joke about someone losing their job. It might seem okay when you're moreorless equals in the hierarchy, but it causes undue amounts of stress for others when you aren't (even when you have no authority over their job). It's just not worth the stress for them and doesn't help your relationship with them either.

Re: Advice to new managers: don't joke about firing people

#248

Post by jabroni_salad »

DecoPerson wrote: post #66

I grew up believing having thick skin was really important. I took this to heart, and now nothing phases me (and I’ve been in a variety of nasty situations that confirmed this). I realize this is not the norm, but I wish it was. Avoiding trigger words and peoples’ sensitivities is frustrating and further complicates complex discussions. I’m not saying we should be robots. I still have feelings. If someone I love show…

It's great for peers, dealing with opposing viewpoints, and controlling your response vs having a reaction.

But when it comes to the person who controls whether I work here or not, how my performance reviews look, what my bonus is, etc I just don't feel like I can brush off their politicking and weird mind games. I need to keep that person happy whether they want it or not to ensure my continued survival. Maybe they mean nothing by it, but what if there is a chance that they do? People have gotten termed for much less.

Re: Advice to new managers: don't joke about firing people

#249

Post by asdfman123 »

kemiller2002 wrote: post #3

This is sound advice. You have a significant amount of control over people's lives as a manager, and that should be treated with a level of respect. You have no idea how people feel, and it is quite possible that someone you manage doesn't know where they stand with you. At times that is more than enough to cause them stress and even convince them to look elsewhere. Work is stressful enough, and you don't need to add…

I've discovered when there's a power dynamic going on between two people, it's usually not a very good idea to pretend like that doesn't exist -- despite the fact that it is my natural inclination to joke about it and downplay it.

Instead, I find it's better to be kind, take things seriously and treat people with respect.

Yes, the power dynamic exists. Yes, I believe it's somewhat unfair and I wish society wasn't structured that way. But make up for it by being kind, being direct and treating people fairly.

Otherwise, it just comes across as an inability to accept responsibility, and if someone with power over you doesn't seem predictable it just feels scary and unstable. Or worse, you'll give people the impression that you're actively taking pleasure in toying with them.

Re: Advice to new managers: don't joke about firing people

#250

Post by gwbas1c »

austincheney wrote: post #246

Perhaps the greatest reason why joking about job security is so bad is that it forces an irreversible wedge between the employee and the employer or team. If a person believes their job is in peril they lose focus of their work and shift focus into matters of personal security. People tend to over emphasize the nature of their employment as a matter of personal identity, accomplishment, and life progress. When those…

> Counter intuitively I have found many people are less emotionally troubled about losing their jobs when the harm is purely financial. That isn’t to say it is free of stress, but rather there are fewer panic moments.

Exactly. I was at a job for nine years, ready for a change, and honestly hoping for a severance package. (Finding a good job is time consuming, so I didn't want to do it on the side and surprise the people I worked with for years with two weeks notice.)

When the higher up delivered the news to me, I had to reassure him! Fortunately, everything was done with dignity, I had plenty of time to finish my project and transfer knowledge.

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