Advice to new managers: don't joke about firing people • Hacker News Board

Re: Advice to new managers: don't joke about firing people

#201

Post by CapriciousCptl » Wed, Jun 10, 2020, 4:05 PM UTC

Non24Throw wrote: post #143

Early in my career, a manager once had me repeat to him that I would be terminated if I failed to do X, like I was a 5-year-old. X was referring to a technical implementation detail that he had zero understanding of. He read something in a blog post I guess. My reaction was to act like it was a fun joke or something. But inside, I absolutely loathed him every second of every day until I quit, and now I take great sat…

How about saying, “please don’t joke about firing me?” Feedback is a 2-way street and people aren’t mind readers.

Re: Advice to new managers: don't joke about firing people

#202

Post by throwaway3563 » Wed, Jun 10, 2020, 4:08 PM UTC

TheBlight wrote: post #179

momokoko wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> is quite possible that someone you manage doesn't know where they stand with you Higher level performers tend to disproportionately believe then need to improve so they tend to take group jokes or threats of termination much more seriously than underperformers. Be very very careful making groups statements and jokes about performance and firings. It’s a fast track to losing high performers who leave because they st…

Do you have a citation for this phenomenon you claim wrt higher level performers?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impostor_syndrome

"... five subgroups this syndrome often falls into.

- The perfectionist

- The superwoman/man

- The natural genius

- The soloist

- The expert"

Re: Advice to new managers: don't joke about firing people

#203

Post by pjc50 » Wed, Jun 10, 2020, 4:08 PM UTC

undefined1 wrote: post #144

sudhirj wrote: post #24

The basic rule of comedy, or making jokes, which is amateur comedy, is that you always punch up. It’s funny when you say “ha! you’re fired!” to your boss, but never when you say it to someone you can actually fire. Same reason why parents (should) never joke about punishment or disciplinary action with their kids - when you have power and authority you also have a responsibility not to belittle it. People will take y…

I know you're specifying amateur comedy, but it's not so clear what's up or down. A lot of people think Dave Chappelle punches down, but is he really?[1] "Comedy is subjective, and it's offensive, it really is. And people are making these imaginary rules, like, 'Comedy can punch up, but it can't punch down.' No, comedy punches down too sometimes, sorry. You don't make up the rules for my business without consulting a…

The thing about punching down is that, because of the power differential, you don't hear back when you've gone too far. You may even get the victim smiling and laughing along with you, for their own safety.

But people remember, and talk among themselves, and your name becomes known, and maybe one day there's a huge backlash. And the backlash looks disproportionate, but should really be considered in proportion to the decades of incidents it's in response to.

(You can see this happening in real time with statues of racists, especially in the UK)

Re: Advice to new managers: don't joke about firing people

#204

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Jun 10, 2020, 4:08 PM UTC

[deleted]

Re: Advice to new managers: don't joke about firing people

#205

Post by mywittyname » Wed, Jun 10, 2020, 4:09 PM UTC

brmgb wrote: post #100

gowld wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A US President once gave a speech joking about assassinating the Jonas Brothers with a predator drone to protect his daughter from dating them. https://abcnews.go.com/WN/president-obama-tells-joke-jonas-b... (Not singling out that President, but the incident was shocking.)

It's shocking but not because it's punching down on the Jonas brothers. The part making people ill at ease is not Obama as a father talking about murdering famous boys trying to date his daughters. The actually shocking part is that the president views drone stricks, which is to say extrajudicial murders in foreign countries, so casually he thinks it's appropriate to make jokes about them.

I'm pretty sure Obama's administration pioneered the double-tap, where a drone strike is followed up several minutes later by another one, which is intended to kill those who are providing aid to the fallen. This is considered to be a war crime. He caught flak contemporaneously for this issue, and not just by Fox News, et al.

I'm generally a strong Obama supporter, but this is one area that I feel like his actions were totally indefensible. I'm not surprised by his callous attitude on the subject.

Re: Advice to new managers: don't joke about firing people

#206

Post by whiddershins » Wed, Jun 10, 2020, 4:10 PM UTC

pmarreck wrote: post #131

_gfrc wrote: post #14

This is along the lines of "Ha, taking half the day off, are we?" when somebody leaves a little bit earlier than usual. It sounds like (just) a bad joke, but it has severe consequences for your working relationship. I get that it's tempting to make jokes when you start managing for your old team members. Just accept the fact that you've switched positions and that your relationship will change. It will only make it m…

This is why, if I ever manage, my focus will be on timely deliverables and not on time-at-desk. Give me a day when you think you can deliver something, update me as soon as you realize you can't ("manage expectations"), and do whatever you want with the rest of your time...

One way that fails is when you are trying to nurture talent that really isn’t where it needs to be yet.

Re: Advice to new managers: don't joke about firing people

#207

Post by TomMarius » Wed, Jun 10, 2020, 4:10 PM UTC

Hamuko wrote: post #29

I imagine this is less of a thing in countries where you need just cause to fire people.

No, they coerce you into leaving yourself in these countries.

Re: Advice to new managers: don't joke about firing people

#208

Post by 6gvONxR4sf7o » Wed, Jun 10, 2020, 4:11 PM UTC

sudhirj wrote: post #24

The basic rule of comedy, or making jokes, which is amateur comedy, is that you always punch up. It’s funny when you say “ha! you’re fired!” to your boss, but never when you say it to someone you can actually fire. Same reason why parents (should) never joke about punishment or disciplinary action with their kids - when you have power and authority you also have a responsibility not to belittle it. People will take y…

I've always disagreed with that rule, but apparently for opposite reasons from most people. I think that punching up and punching down are both bad, as a rule of thumb. They're great comedy in certain situations, but as a rule of thumb, I think they're to be avoided.

As for when they're appropriate, it's about A) the potential damage that can come from it being misconstrued or B) the potential damage that can come from you doing part of it wrong. It's more common for there to be potential harm when "punching" down than up (hence the rule of thumb), but there are situations where it's fine or bad in either direction. But a lot of those situations are only in a context of real trust, for example with friends you don't have power over who know you well already, or a comedy club where it's understood that it's all for laughs.

Re: Advice to new managers: don't joke about firing people

#209

Post by User23 » Wed, Jun 10, 2020, 4:12 PM UTC

tinyhouse wrote: post #194

notdonspaulding wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a man who's been married for 15+ years, I would absolutely advise young couples to consider the disciplines and policies they expect their relationship to abide by in much the same way managers and employees discuss their policies and procedures. "Talk freely", yes, but also, as this article so correctly points out, understand the effect your language has on your relationships (direct reports, friends, spouses, fa…

> My wife and I decided, before we got married, that divorce was off the table for us. Well, you can decide whatever you want before you get married. People change, things happen, it's called life...

Catholics believe that marriage ends only with death. While obviously a civil divorce is possible, the actual sacramental marriage is indissoluble. One of the consequences of this belief is that Catholic couples are considerably less likely to get a civil divorce than other Christians or atheists[1].

[1] https://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/catholics-continue-t...

Re: Advice to new managers: don't joke about firing people

#210

Post by Carpetsmoker » Wed, Jun 10, 2020, 4:12 PM UTC

I find the responses to this interesting; several mangers have made some jokes like this over the years (it was even something of a running joke with my last one) and I never felt threatened. Perhaps because in my country you have employment protection laws so you can't just terminate someone's employment, which is rather different from many US states.