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Access to Wikipedia restored in Turkey after more than two and a half years

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Re: Access to Wikipedia restored in Turkey after more than two and a half years

#261

Post by magduf »

onetimemanytime wrote: post #197
tokai wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Makes sense why Ergodan is attacking the court system. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/jul/18/un-urged-to-ac...

He's destroying the other side completely, whether they are lawyers or government janitors. But in theory courts and military can stop him. He purged the military https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016%E2%80%93present_purges_in... so it's just the court now. Absolute power is dangerous and the mind starts to slip after a while.

>But in theory courts and military can stop him.

The voters can also stop him. Instead, Turkish voters not only re-elected him multiple times, they even voted in one special election to give him even more power.

The Turkish people are getting the government they've voted for.

>Absolute power is dangerous and the mind starts to slip after a while.

Yes, but what can you do when a nation of people democratically decide to give someone absolute power? If you try to prevent this, then you're working against democracy.

Re: Access to Wikipedia restored in Turkey after more than two and a half years

#262

Post by woodpanel »

zzuko wrote: post #253
chalst wrote: post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I wouldn't call the Gulenist movement a cult, they certainly engaged in conspiracies. The irony was that their infiltration into the army and civil service was supported by Erdoğan earlier, as a counterweight to the Kemalist establishment. Turkey is the country that the term "deep state" was coined to describe. I don't know what to believe about the so-called coup.

Gulenist movement was certainly a cult, I live in Turkey and been to one of their school. I have the first-hand experience of their brainwashing methods and Gulenist indoctrination.

To me it always seemed like Gulen is the most internationally interviewed Turk for criticisms on Erdogan, whilst his own ideology doesn't seem so "modern" as well.

Would really appreciate If you could explain what Gulenism is about and particular where it differs from the Erdoganian Muslim Brotherhood ideology.

Re: Access to Wikipedia restored in Turkey after more than two and a half years

#263

Post by YeGoblynQueenne »

mola wrote: post #208
rolleiflex wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is neither new nor first. Turkey has a court tradition that spans, at this point, more than seven hundred years (excluding Eastern Roman law with Corpus Iuris Civilis , which if included would bring it to 2500, an unbroken chain from whence it came, Rome) - to the point that it customarily allowed every sub-nation of the Ottoman Empire to have their own court and apply their own laws. For example, if you were Ch…

Modern Turkey is indeed built on sound "enlightenment-ideas-based". This doesn't mean it will continue to be so. The current regime works hard to change these principles. The fact that these principles are challenged in democracies world over should bother us. This is not the same as it ever was, it's a real threat for the liberties and rights humanity managed to bootstrap for it's individuals. We are watching the er…

Do the "enlightenment-ideas" on which the modern Turkish nation is based include the necessity of ethnic cleansing of Christian and Greek-speaking populations in Asia Minor, that motivated the genocides of the Pontic and Anatolian Greeks, Assyrians and Armenians, overseen and instigated by the Young Turks? Or does it refer to the continued denial of Turkey that these took place, despite their recognition as acts of genocide by the international community?

It's a rhetoric question. There is nothing "enlightened" about modern Turkey: it is a de facto military dictatorship, belligerent and militaristic, that relishes its self-chosen role as the regional bully in the Eastern Mediterrannean and the Near East. It was like this before Erdogan (with Turgut Ozal) and it will be like this after Erdogan, and for a long time still.

But perhaps I'm just blinded by prejudice having lived most of my life in Greece, which is right next door to Turkey. Perhaps you -presumably not living so close to Turkey- may have a broader perspective that I am missing.

In that case, can you name one time in the last 45 years when Turky has actively promoted peace and stability in the regions it borders? (I'm leaving out 1974, the year of the invasion of Cyprus, to make it easier).

Re: Access to Wikipedia restored in Turkey after more than two and a half years

#264

Post by furbyhater »

magduf wrote: post #261
onetimemanytime wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He's destroying the other side completely, whether they are lawyers or government janitors. But in theory courts and military can stop him. He purged the military https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016%E2%80%93present_purges_in... so it's just the court now. Absolute power is dangerous and the mind starts to slip after a while.

>But in theory courts and military can stop him. The voters can also stop him. Instead, Turkish voters not only re-elected him multiple times, they even voted in one special election to give him even more power. The Turkish people are getting the government they've voted for. >Absolute power is dangerous and the mind starts to slip after a while. Yes, but what can you do when a nation of people democratically decide…

It's not that simple. Erdogan massively repressed his rivals, such as the parties representing the Kurdish part of the population and their sympathizers (HDP) and the whole Gülen movement, not to mention the young movement protesting in the Gezi Park a few years ago. So we cannot pretend that the elections held were fair and open, e.g. the results aren't representative of the entire population of Turkey.

Re: Access to Wikipedia restored in Turkey after more than two and a half years

#265

Post by furbyhater »

monadic2 wrote: post #106
jacquesm wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The real effect is that Turkey will get more and more behind the rest of the world because its citizens do not have access to information. Regimes that block access to the truth are structurally disadvantaging themselves and their citizens in the long run.

I’m not sure I buy this. Sure you can have access to the “truth” in the west, but you also see a staggering amount of propaganda/mass manipulation/willful distraction and no easy way of differentiating the two. That said, wikipedia specifically would be a massive loss to anyone.

You're charmingly naive if you think that the Turkish powers that be don't put out an equally staggering amount of propaganda/mass manipulation/willful distraction themselves, in addition to blocking access to the information that they think might be detrimental to maintaining their power.

Re: Access to Wikipedia restored in Turkey after more than two and a half years

#266

Post by stale2002 »

ClumsyPilot wrote: post #248
stale2002 wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> guys it was lifted. After a ruling by a court. It took 2 and half years for this to happen. That does not sound like a nation of laws to me. Imagine if this happened in America. Would you be making apologist arguments, in that situation?

US seems like have it's own style, like the pursuit of Jullian Assange and shutdown of Lavabit. You could argue that it's worse . https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lavabit

I am not sure why people in this thread are so quick to try and defend people who shutdown websites, and important information.

You don't have to defend them. Just say that they did a bad thing and call it a day.

Re: Access to Wikipedia restored in Turkey after more than two and a half years

#267

Post by furbyhater »

jammygit wrote: post #89
muznar wrote: post #54

I always wonder what the real effects of these kind of blocks. For even average users of the internet, it was easy to overcome this block by just putting a "0" in front of the domain name. 0wikipedia.org is a clone of wikipedia and it was accessible. WHOIS search shows 0wikipedia domain name was created on 4 May 2017, just five days after the block. I am a Turkish grad student in the US. Whenever I visited Turkey, I…

Imagine the near future when governments become more technically adept and those holes get plugged. These stories are scariest because they utterly prove how eager governments are to control access to information and communications. Same thing with DRM - its scariest because one day it will work

Sorry to break it to you but we're well past the "scary because it might (theoretically in a far away future) work" phase. Today IP blocks are practised by all or at least most nations, and even western "democratic" governments are salivating at China's advances in mass surveillance. Some of the worst offenders are Britain and Germany, but France is not much better. Countries with a "free" internet are becoming few and far between (thanks to the "free speech craze" the US is still amongst them, but on the other hand punishments are draconian if you "misbehave").

Re: Access to Wikipedia restored in Turkey after more than two and a half years

#268

Post by mirekrusin »

justinclift wrote: post #68
mirekrusin wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He'd have to have them on bitcoin payroll.

Maybe some kind of cryptocurrency, but it's unlike to be Bitcoin. When people get paid, they want the value of their payment to not massively go up/down each week.

You can be paid usd amount at the fx at the time of transfer in bitcoin and you can convert it right away if you want. Or use stablecoin for transfers. It's actually relatively trivial to have dozens of options of payment options depending on employee preference (I mean once you have cryptocurrency payroll setup it's not difficult to have all available options... available and customizable by receiver).

Re: Access to Wikipedia restored in Turkey after more than two and a half years

#269

Post by mzs »

kariha wrote: post #63
baybal2 wrote: post #52

While talking about this, I think it's appropriate to at least mention what that block was about: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berat_Albayrak

It's incorrect. The block was began because of Turkey was in the list of State-sponsored Terrorism article [1]. Turkish authorities asked to remove the content from Wikipedia, otherwise they will be blocked. [2] [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State-sponsored_terrorism [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Block_of_Wikipedia_in_Turkey#c...

On Oct16* it was two BiL articles that caused internet blockages even wider than just wikipedia.

Then later on Apr17* it was two terrorism articles that caused internet blockages and this was given as the official reason for blocking wikipedia.

https://www.haaretz.com/middle-east-news/turkey/revealed-the...

  Oct16*
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berat_Albayrak

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RedHack

  Apr17*
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State-sponsored_terrorism#Turk...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_involvement_in_the_Syr...

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