An alternative argument for why women leave STEM • Hacker News Board

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#551

Post by oarabbus_ » Sat, Jan 18, 2020, 4:29 AM UTC

thrower123 wrote: post #185

thereisnospork wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

SWE's are a tiny slice of 'STEM' and by far the most profitable. How much do you think the average phd in biology makes? maybe 30k/y till 27, then 45k/y till 30, then followed by 75-90?

This is why I have a bit of an aneurysm whenever all of these wildly disparate things are lumped together under the umbrella of "STEM". Notably, we keep medicine in the acronym, but in almost all discussions, doctors and nurses and everything else that would fit under that heading are forked out already. - Edit: derp, it's Math, not medicine, but there's an indication of how brain-rotted I've gotten trying to follow…

STEM is Science, Technology, Engineering, and Mathematics.

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#552

Post by filleduchaos » Sat, Jan 18, 2020, 4:31 AM UTC

pnako wrote: post #539

healsjnr1 wrote: post #512

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This point of view keeps coming up and it completely misses the point that _this already happens to every single women who has given up their career to look after children_. This flexibility and cost you are talking about is borne entirely by them as they rearrange their lives and attempt to make things work while men continue with barely any disruption. I'm my opinion this is deep, unintentional, structural sexism.…

Saying that women give up a career to look after their children is like lamenting the fact that people are giving up drinking to look after their liver.

Do you consider a career to be a literally body-destroying poison for men as well or only for women?

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#553

Post by rayiner » Sat, Jan 18, 2020, 4:31 AM UTC

detoxdetox wrote: post #79

entee wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with this and the subtlety of the OP’s argument. There is clearly a problem, there are clearly many contributors, I have personally seen The OP situation play out with my female friends/colleagues in STEM (and other “high power” sectors). This does NOT discount that sexism still is a problem nor that there may be cultural/societal norms that influence the family planning issue. It’s a complicated issue, it ne…

Lost in the modern rush for status and money, "obscenely convenient high quality daycare" used to be called "Motherhood" and was supplied by Mothers themselves. Some would argue, the most valuable contribution to society, even if not directly monetized. To sustain a healthy population, we used to need 10 children per fertile woman, which made "stay at home Mother" an obvious necessity for the vast majority of women.…

You’re talking about a history that never really existed except for a few decades in a few western countries. Look at countries where women actually have many children. They’re not “stay at home moms.” They’re agricultural societies where men and women work alongside each other, and groups of very old or very young women in the village take care of the children.

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#554

Post by toasterlovin » Sat, Jan 18, 2020, 4:33 AM UTC

badfrog wrote: post #513

toasterlovin wrote: post #392

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Time spent raising children should be shared in a way that the parents mutually agree on. Society has no legitimate interest in which gender does the work, as long as it's a mutually agreed to arrangement that both parties are equally happy with (or, probably more accurately, equally least-unsatisfied with).

> Society has no legitimate interest in which gender does the work That's not really true. If all women chose to raise children instead of working, many products would have poorer design due to lack of diversity in ideas. And if 95% of women chose not to work, the 5% who want to work will have a harder time in many respects.

> And if 95% of women chose not to work, the 5% who want to work will have a harder time in many respects.

Why should the preferences of the 5% override the preferences of the 95%? A widespread norm of two incomes per household makes it much harder for women to be homemakers and full time mothers (since single income households have to compete with dual income households for positional goods like housing).

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#555

Post by rixed » Sat, Jan 18, 2020, 4:44 AM UTC

username90 wrote: post #516

erikpukinskis wrote: post #500

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which aspect of sexual dimorphism causes men to disrespect other men who care for children?

The competitive aspect? Males in plenty of species compete for status and low status males are getting chased away from the pack, so evidently genes are expressive enough to encode gender norms.

You probably believe that your views about genders is coming from observations of "males in plenty of species", but have you considered that maybe your views about "plenty of species" could come from your views on genders?

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#556

Post by enraged_camel » Sat, Jan 18, 2020, 4:53 AM UTC

YeGoblynQueenne wrote: post #537

hanniabu wrote: post #460

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Probably going to get downvoted for this, but how exactly is this sexism? It seems to be just plain old biology.

How is it biology that only women are expected to leave work to care for children? I don't follow. Is there some biological reason why men are not expected to do the same? Do you mean something else by the "it" in "It seems to be just plain old biology"?

The article literally talks about this. The problem is unborn children, i.e. pregnancy. That's solely a burden for the mother, who will not be able to travel and keep up with strenuous work schedules for most of the duration of their pregnancy.

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#557

Post by pnako » Sat, Jan 18, 2020, 4:56 AM UTC

filleduchaos wrote: post #552

pnako wrote: post #539

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Saying that women give up a career to look after their children is like lamenting the fact that people are giving up drinking to look after their liver.

Do you consider a career to be a literally body-destroying poison for men as well or only for women?

The French word for work, 'travail', comes from 'tripalium', a medieval torture instrument. It's bad for everyone, and I definitely think a society where only one parent has to work instead of two is better.

A 'career' is something pop singers and top athletes (male or female) have. They even have agents to manage those careers. But most people have a job; they do work, travail, tripalium.

The fact that people confuse the two is just capitalist propaganda.

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#558

Post by hinkley » Sat, Jan 18, 2020, 5:11 AM UTC

maire wrote: post #342

hinkley wrote: post #87

I can't speak for women, and I'm just smart enough not to try. But what I can say is that I don't hold all of the values that I did as a young man. I'm not excited about the same things, and today I find some of those ideas uncomfortably naive or even off-putting. As I've engaged in more activities, as I've socialized with more people, I've encountered many more ideas and a lot of nuance. Nothing has simple answers a…

Is this poster for real? I am not sure how this got top upvotes since it doesn't seem to be about the article at all. The article was about women in STEM academia which doesn't seem to be at all about women whiffing a poster's reality. The article is about women in STEM academia which is a tiny subset of women in the STEM workforce. Some STEM professions do a better job of retaining women than others.

> got top upvotes

Is it really? That’s disappointing.

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

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Post by chadcmulligan » Sat, Jan 18, 2020, 5:12 AM UTC

virtuous_signal wrote: post #514

HammockWarrior wrote: post #397

Seems like much of the problem could be solved by just having the working world chill the f' out for women and for men. For example, a 32 hour workweek along with generous paid parental leaves. Everyone should have time for a life outside of work, not just women of childbearing age. Also, The whole idea of having young people work like dogs in order to have a shot at making partner, or gaining tenure, or gaining a me…

32 hour workweeks might work but there will always be the issue of defection . If a company allows employees to take unlimited leave, then worker A who avails him/herself of it, will be at a disadvantage to worker B who keeps working like a dog, when it comes time for promotions. If company A mandates 32 hour workweeks, then they will eventually lose out to their competitor company B who mandates 40 hours (or more in…

You can use tariffs to correct the imbalance, although they seem a dirty word until recently

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#560

Post by rixed » Sat, Jan 18, 2020, 5:17 AM UTC

allovernow wrote: post #530

deyouz wrote: post #506

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you are going to claim something as harmful as that, I want you to present clear evidence and peer reviewed studies to support your claims. What you were suggesting is that men are better than women at STEM. Simplg saying men have more testosterone doesn't cut it as evidence. (Besides, competitiveness doesn't make you a better researcher or employee, and can even be harmful in a team). I also need data for the num…

Start here [1]. This is delving dangerously close to flame war territory, so I probably won't respond further. But I'd like to point out that because of attitudes like this >If you are going to continue with this subtle sexist talk (implying men are better than women at STEM) You're probably unlikely to find too much on the subject - it's dangerous to academic careers to even propose research which could potentially…

Regarding 1: Sexual dymorphism in hominids is not regarded as large compared to other close primates. I don't know where you take this opinion that physical abilities between males and women are "massive", but certainly not from actual measurements. Here are some, conveniently in a single table, for those interested:

https://www.geo.arizona.edu/Antevs/nats104/00lect13dimorph.h...

(Note: We are homo sapiens, pan troglodites is our closest relative still alive the social ape chimpanzee, pongo pygmaeus is the solitary orangutan, gorilla gorilla is the small group living usual gorilla, others are extinct relatives)