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An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

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Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#511

Post by nhumrich »

steelframe wrote: post #483

When I was an engineering manager at one tech company 6 years ago, I fought like hell to get a woman who had a CS Ph.D. to join my team, and I somehow pulled that off. Her husband also had a CS degree (B.S. or M.S., not recall which) and worked for another tech company. Every time there was a contractor that they needed to have someone at the house for, or every time their kid got sick and/or couldn't go to school, g…

While you are very likely correct, your perception could also be biased. If the father took time, you wouldn't know about it. So from your point of view, it was always her, but it could have also been only half the time.

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#512

Post by healsjnr1 »

barry-cotter wrote: post #488
entee wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with this and the subtlety of the OP’s argument. There is clearly a problem, there are clearly many contributors, I have personally seen The OP situation play out with my female friends/colleagues in STEM (and other “high power” sectors). This does NOT discount that sexism still is a problem nor that there may be cultural/societal norms that influence the family planning issue. It’s a complicated issue, it ne…

> As men in the field we should advocate for those things Karen recommends, namely flexible hours, obscenely convenient high quality childcare, and other supports to make a career not the death of family. Flexible hours impose large costs in terms of increased difficulty of coordination and communication and if you’re really serious about them you need to completely upend the organizational structure, like changing a…

This point of view keeps coming up and it completely misses the point that _this already happens to every single women who has given up their career to look after children_.

This flexibility and cost you are talking about is borne entirely by them as they rearrange their lives and attempt to make things work while men continue with barely any disruption.

I'm my opinion this is deep, unintentional, structural sexism. It is the biggest issue I have with articles like this.

Stamping out overt workplace harassment and sexism is barely the beginning. There are deep structures in place that have benefited men like me for millennia.

These need to be considered not as complicated side issues but as the core barrier to achieving equity (as opposed to equality) in these fields.

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#513

Post by badfrog »

toasterlovin wrote: post #392
howling wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think people are arguing that to be fair, time spent on raising children should be shared equally between father and mother.

Time spent raising children should be shared in a way that the parents mutually agree on. Society has no legitimate interest in which gender does the work, as long as it's a mutually agreed to arrangement that both parties are equally happy with (or, probably more accurately, equally least-unsatisfied with).

> Society has no legitimate interest in which gender does the work

That's not really true. If all women chose to raise children instead of working, many products would have poorer design due to lack of diversity in ideas. And if 95% of women chose not to work, the 5% who want to work will have a harder time in many respects.

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#514

Post by virtuous_signal »

HammockWarrior wrote: post #397

Seems like much of the problem could be solved by just having the working world chill the f' out for women and for men. For example, a 32 hour workweek along with generous paid parental leaves. Everyone should have time for a life outside of work, not just women of childbearing age. Also, The whole idea of having young people work like dogs in order to have a shot at making partner, or gaining tenure, or gaining a me…

32 hour workweeks might work but there will always be the issue of defection.

If a company allows employees to take unlimited leave, then worker A who avails him/herself of it, will be at a disadvantage to worker B who keeps working like a dog, when it comes time for promotions.

If company A mandates 32 hour workweeks, then they will eventually lose out to their competitor company B who mandates 40 hours (or more informally).

If country A says ALL companies must have <=32 hour workweeks, then country B, with no such law, will become more productive. And on and on. There will always be some less enlightened competitor to take advantage -- and do we really think America is ready to stop being #1?

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#515

Post by uncle_j »

erikpukinskis wrote: post #500
uncle_j wrote: post #415

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't agree it is sexism. It is the simple fact that our species is sexually dimorphic. This guarantees that there will be asymmetry between the genders regardless of the social engineering that is attempted. There is about 4 billion years of evolution and the thinking that it can be socially engineered away is a folly. > Sexism also harms men. Yes it does. But this is not one of those circumstances. However that i…

Which aspect of sexual dimorphism causes men to disrespect other men who care for children?

It isn't seen as "real" work by other men. Men have been the bread winners for almost all of human history and thus other men don't think they are doing their bit.

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#516

Post by username90 »

erikpukinskis wrote: post #500
uncle_j wrote: post #415

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't agree it is sexism. It is the simple fact that our species is sexually dimorphic. This guarantees that there will be asymmetry between the genders regardless of the social engineering that is attempted. There is about 4 billion years of evolution and the thinking that it can be socially engineered away is a folly. > Sexism also harms men. Yes it does. But this is not one of those circumstances. However that i…

Which aspect of sexual dimorphism causes men to disrespect other men who care for children?

The competitive aspect? Males in plenty of species compete for status and low status males are getting chased away from the pack, so evidently genes are expressive enough to encode gender norms.

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#517

Post by pc2g4d »

I'm just not sure how upset to be that there is still some difference in typical roles between men and women. It may be a norm for women to be more likely to be the primary caregiver for young children, but is that bad or wrong? It may even be a biological drive for all I know. Is 50/50 representation at all levels of all fields really the goal we want to shoot for?

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#518

Post by bjourne »

detoxdetox wrote: post #384
ck425 wrote: post #280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's worth noting that the amount of time parents (more so mothers) spend with each child has increased vastly, with relatively little evidence to suggest much increase in attainment. Most studies show that it's quality of time, not quantity, with parents that really matters. The evidence suggests we don't actually need to parent so much. Personally I see absolutely nothing wrong with sending kids to day care. We sho…

Good point. A bit of nuance: Young children are information sponges. Think about how easy a 2-3 year old picks up language. It is not that hard to believe that 2-3 year olds also pick up behavioral patterns from their surroundings. For life. Do we want Mothers to shape their young children's behavioral patterns, or low paid child care workers with no skin in the game? 8 year olds? Send them to school with a key aroun…

They do have skin in the game. As shown in many studies, people generally are good. Therefore, most daycare workers would prefer if the children they worked with turned out good rather than bad.

While daycare workers may be underpaid, in many countries they work requires at least some education. They would also accumulate experience in proper child care the more years of experience they have in the profession. I.e. it is not a given that mothers are better than professionals in raising their own kids.

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#519

Post by monoideism »

ck425 wrote: post #302
codingmess wrote: post #283

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's hurting in some ways, for example in increased prices for housing. If families with two income earners compete with families with one income earner, the outlook is bleak for one earner families. Prices simply rise to what the two earner households can afford. In fact many families can not afford the single earner model anymore. There are also changed expectation, although presumably those can be managed. But onc…

What you fail to mention though is the whole host of benefits to society that comes from gender equality, equality that is a direct result of woman working. Unfortunately it seems to be fundamentally difficult to make both models of the family work equally well simultaneously.

> whole host of benefits to society that comes from gender equality

Can you give me some examples? Not disagreeing, just would like to know.

I can see how there's a lot of benefits to society for men and women to receive equal amounts of esteem and respect for the work they do, but I'm not convinced it has to be the exact same work in the exact same proportions.

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#520

Post by alfor »

Those are very high status, high demand 'job', you need a lot so sacrifices to achieve tenure professor, and I think they are not compatible with family raising for most people. Why, because you are competing with the best people that are willing to sacrifice life balance, family, leisure time, etc.

But the thing is, it's a choice, no one is forced to go into super high status occupations. Those that choose so must be very bright and completely dedicated to one thing. I think most women know or realise later on that this level of competition is insane, and that's why they quit and find something that is not as high status, but is more enjoyable.

A very small percentage of men are willing to ditch everything else to be at the top, some get there, most don't, most women find out that it's not worth it.

Oh, and I think it's crucial for children to bond with their mother and skipping this and putting them in daycare early is not in their best interest. I also think that motherhood is more valuable than most engineering job or paper publishing.

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