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An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

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Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#391

Post by uncle_j »

tylermenezes wrote: post #272

I think it's still a form of sexism to assume women are the ones who need to care for a child. That's something that very few diversity-in-STEM folks are really thinking about. Many years ago an ex-girlfriend, who works in STEM academia (and is otherwise a liberal, progressive feminist), expressed concerns similar to the author about having kids. When I brought up that it wasn't written in stone that she would need t…

It is almost never mentioned but most men won't respect other men who are stay at home parent. So there is also an expectation on the man to be the bread winner.

Also many women tend not to want men who earn less then them:

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/rich-women-like-rich-men-a...

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#392

Post by toasterlovin »

howling wrote: post #207
bArray wrote: post #178

I think people have been hinting towards the point that it's generally maternity and not sexism that mostly creates the differences in career progression. Of course there was a time in history where sexism played a major role, but I think that in modern times this is mostly gone (although I know of recent cases). We can take several actions to balance the books, but the important point I would like to ask is: Do we r…

I think people are arguing that to be fair, time spent on raising children should be shared equally between father and mother.

Time spent raising children should be shared in a way that the parents mutually agree on. Society has no legitimate interest in which gender does the work, as long as it's a mutually agreed to arrangement that both parties are equally happy with (or, probably more accurately, equally least-unsatisfied with).

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#393

Post by emj »

maximente wrote: post #212
kalenx wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

After pregancy and the very first months of life, I fail to see any "obvious biological reasons".

WHO recommends breast feeding until age of 2, so that's at least one thing that seems not readily changeable across sexes.

That is excessive, and is a troublesome outcome from the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nestlé_boycott I only have anecdotal data but this advice does not help families that have problems with breast feeding.

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#394

Post by deyouz »

MrFantastic wrote: post #300
hinkley wrote: post #87

I can't speak for women, and I'm just smart enough not to try. But what I can say is that I don't hold all of the values that I did as a young man. I'm not excited about the same things, and today I find some of those ideas uncomfortably naive or even off-putting. As I've engaged in more activities, as I've socialized with more people, I've encountered many more ideas and a lot of nuance. Nothing has simple answers a…

Men are hardwired to ascend to the top of the hierachy so they can access all the women. That's why male billonaires will risk their fortune to make another billion. Women are not rewarded biologically for being the top 2% in their industry. It's almost as if the higher women climb career wise the fewer dating options they have because women tend to want men that are even higher on the totem pole. Outside of a score…

Oh, here comes the evolutionary psychology nonsense.

The world doesn't revolve around dating.

And what about lesbians? Do they benefit from being in the top 2%, according to your logic? They would still "access all the women"

It is also a bit disturbing that yoh believe being a billionaire gives you access to all the women.

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#395

Post by YeGoblynQueenne »

The author is missing the forest for the trees. She argues that a specific kind of sexism (harrassment) is not sufficient to explain why so many women are forced out of their careers in STEM academia. She argues that the real reason is that those women want to start a family and they can't do both at once. She herself is considering leaving academia to start a family (she wants to have two or three children). Yet she never for a moment stops to wonder why it is that a woman like her has to make a choice between family and career, why that is a choice that so many women have to make and why it is a choice that so few men have to make. The answer to all that is sexism, of course, the kind of sexism that the author is so used to she doesn't even consider it sexism anymore, just the normal order of things. Yes, of course a young, talented researcher _has_ to leave academia to raise her kids. Because she's a woman. And that's what happens to women.

That is sexism. It is clear sexism, it is classic sexism and it will not go away by pretending that it is not. And I agree very much with the author that it is the real reason behind the constant stream of promising female researchers leaving STEM academia.

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#396

Post by jacobwilliamroy »

proc0 wrote: post #320
Nouser76 wrote: post #287

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because diverse opinions lead to better end products. Having homogenized groups of people means you're leaving some viewpoints out, and those viewpoints have sometimes been extremely helpful for me as a software developer.

Sure, however this isn't false otherwise. Non-diverse opinions aren't bad by default, and ultimately the main concern here is thinking the opposite, that diverse opinions are always right.

It's an error to assume any opinion is always right. Ultimately institutional sex discrimination is counter-productive to human life, so you will generally see a higher quality of life, lower violence, better health outcomes, reduced chemical toxicity, in places where both sexes have equal social mobility.

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#397

Post by HammockWarrior »

Seems like much of the problem could be solved by just having the working world chill the f' out for women and for men. For example, a 32 hour workweek along with generous paid parental leaves. Everyone should have time for a life outside of work, not just women of childbearing age.

Also, The whole idea of having young people work like dogs in order to have a shot at making partner, or gaining tenure, or gaining a medical degree is both outdated and ageist.

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#398

Post by jccalhoun »

daotoad wrote: post #263

My only quibble with this article is that the fact that there is a wall related to child bearing and rearing IS institutional sexism. It's just a different form of it than the "my coworkers constantly stare at my tits and don't take what I say seriously" variety. We've put women largely in charge of child rearing duties. Obviously, men aren't able to get pregnant and bear children. We are, however, perfectly capable…

I agree. The article says "What if it isn't sexism?" and then goes on to describe institutional sexism.

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#399

Post by astura »

gfodor wrote: post #368
ck425 wrote: post #280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's worth noting that the amount of time parents (more so mothers) spend with each child has increased vastly, with relatively little evidence to suggest much increase in attainment. Most studies show that it's quality of time, not quantity, with parents that really matters. The evidence suggests we don't actually need to parent so much. Personally I see absolutely nothing wrong with sending kids to day care. We sho…

Do you have any citations here? I've always assumed that mothers on average spend less time with their children than in the past, especially the far past, where the men were often abroad fighting wars.

"Parents now spend twice as much time with their children as 50 years ago"

https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2017/11/27/parents-...

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#400

Post by pnw_hazor »

balls187 wrote: post #232
pnw_hazor wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My wife was a developer (EE degree). As soon as our first child was on-the-way she put down her programming books and picked up the child rearing books. She dropped her dev job the moment her water broke and never looked back. The opportunity cost was enormous but now that the kids are grown it sure seems like it was a great plan for us. My wife did get a lot grief from her family for dropping out of the workforce ($…

Between the two of you, why did you stay in workforce?

To be honest, at the time, me leaving the workforce never crossed our minds. I was a hotshot dev in those days and I barely even paused when our first kid was born.

And, as I remember it, my wife intended to go back to dev work after a couple of months. But her return never materialized. It didn't seem like a reasonable option to us when the time came.

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