An alternative argument for why women leave STEM • Hacker News Board

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#81

Post by __jal » Fri, Jan 17, 2020, 8:20 PM UTC

tharne wrote: post #60

I think the author buried the lede here. My biggest takeaway from the article is that you'd have to be an absolute sucker to work in academia given how poorly you'll be treated. Each person that puts up with this only makes the problem worse, giving at least tacit approval to the status quo. If folks were to start opting out of academia in larger numbers for jobs in private industry, schools would be forced to improv…

> Academics should [...] vot[e] with their feet.

You do see the problem here, don't you?

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#82

Post by untog » Fri, Jan 17, 2020, 8:20 PM UTC

brlewis wrote: post #74

untog wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not every problem is startup shaped. > think a benefits platform that allows companies to offer daycare as a benefit Companies could offer daycare as a benefit today if they wanted to. It isn't their benefits platform holding them back. In fairness, I can see why companies don't offer daycare as a benefit: it's enormously expensive (particularly in major metros) and it would be very difficult to plan what % of your e…

It doesn't fit the HN definition of startup, but here's a small, growing company doing just that: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bright_Horizons

Oh, I've used them! I just really don't think they're a startup by any definition. Founded in 1986, 30,000 employees, 1,000 locations.

And they aren't offering a benefit platform, they're running actual daycare locations. Their connection to employers is also most commonly providing "backup care", not solid day-to-day daycare. Nothing to sniff at of course, but that alone will not solve the problem for working parents.

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#83

Post by fzeroracer » Fri, Jan 17, 2020, 8:21 PM UTC

darawk wrote: post #61

fzeroracer wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But there are men making this choice, and their careers are generally just as negatively impacted as the women who make it. I don't think this claim holds up to scrutiny. Yes, there are men out there whose careers are negatively impacted by starting a family, but by and large the expectation is a man continues working while a woman drops everything. That's part of the reason why family leave for men is less common.…

> I don't think this claim holds up to scrutiny. Yes, there are men out there whose careers are negatively impacted by starting a family, but by and large the expectation is a man continues working while a woman drops everything. That's part of the reason why family leave for men is less common. That isn't what I said though. Obviously men who start a family but don't do the childcare won't be negatively impacted. I'…

You said that they were equally negatively impacted though and I brought up an example of where that is clearly not the case. Which is parental leave, done in a way as to discourage men from taking time off to take care of a newborn while also pressuring women to be the primary caregivers.

That's my entire point. They're not equally impacted because there are larger societal pressures designed to punish women who want to continue their career and men who want to spend time with their children.

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#84

Post by zajio1am » Fri, Jan 17, 2020, 8:21 PM UTC

untog wrote: post #48

zajio1am wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Sexism is not merely about personal conduct but also how we structure society. What does raising children have to do with society? Decision of having and raising a child is a fundamentally personal, not societal decision. Each pair should decide how they want to split responsibilities of raising a child before its conception, based on their preferences, and society should not force them to any model. Also, it seems…

> What does raising children have to do with society? Decision of having and raising a child is a fundamentally personal, not societal decision. Of course it isn't. Every society needs an up and coming younger generation as the older generation stops working. That is absolutely a problem on a societal level.

While i agree it may be a concern of a society to be stable, it does not automatically translate to necessary concern for society as a whole. Many things necessary for a society work even if society does not intervene in them. People would have children for emotional reasons even if society does not intervene.

Also, if a societal stability is a goal, then having more than replacement number of children is as problematic as having less.

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#85

Post by jkingsbery » Fri, Jan 17, 2020, 8:21 PM UTC

I'm totally on board with making changes that address concerns for women specifically.

That being said, as someone not in academia, it seems like a crazy path for anyone, male or female. As the article said, you're usually 34 before you have a lab established and the research program really gets going. Is there any way the system could be changed/simplified so that talented researchers could start earlier?

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#86

Post by krastanov » Fri, Jan 17, 2020, 8:23 PM UTC

o_p wrote: post #52

krastanov wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I, and many others, hold the expectation that we are quite capable of overcoming our animal instincts (in this, but importantly in many other aspects also) to make a better world. Especially if the presence of the instinct is used as a pseudo science excuse.

But it will really lead us to a better world? Theres a reason why we have instincts, its so arrogant from the enlightened westerns to think they know better than literally every other society in history. Take it as anecdotal experience, I dont have a study right here and women are free to do whatever they want. But a childless life is much more likely to be a less happier and a unfulfilling life.

Sure, some instincts are good, like gagging at the sight of rotten food.

But also, our instincts tell us to eat sugar, be tribalistic, and (for men) to do stupid stuff to impress mates. We are designed to live in caves and chase herbivores. But for millennia we have been doing much more than what our instincts relegate us to.

And no, this is not a westerner with a superiority complex thing. See how relatively egalitarian the cultures of various settlers and natives have been throughout history.

Lastly, while I understand that for you and many others a childless life would be unfulfilling, please do not assume this to be even nearly universal. Moreover, not having or wanting your own (biological or not) children does not mean you can not help the next generation, through mentorship and teaching and community service.

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#87

Post by hinkley » Fri, Jan 17, 2020, 8:24 PM UTC

I can't speak for women, and I'm just smart enough not to try.

But what I can say is that I don't hold all of the values that I did as a young man. I'm not excited about the same things, and today I find some of those ideas uncomfortably naive or even off-putting.

As I've engaged in more activities, as I've socialized with more people, I've encountered many more ideas and a lot of nuance. Nothing has simple answers and there are other solutions to problems besides code, or tools, or pills, or surgery.

And one of the consequences of this is that I'm not confident that if I show up to interview at a startup that I'm going to exhibit the degree of 'passion' they're looking for. I have plenty of passion. Too much, some will tell you. I just know beyond all doubt that your new iOS app is not going to save the world, and quite bluntly, that you have some unresolved issues that you need to work through if you so desperately need to believe how transformative your work is going to be. And I know that's not just STEM - all the 20-somethings who I've seen doing volunteer work - and bless you for showing up - feel exactly the same way. I'm gonna change the world. I have to change the world. Otherwise my life is empty and I am nothing.

It can be discomfiting to be around and I'm sure I telegraph it.

They say that young women socialize a little ahead of young men. Maybe they just get a whiff of my reality before all the rhetoric gets piled on so thick that's all they can see.

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#88

Post by deyouz » Fri, Jan 17, 2020, 8:24 PM UTC

detoxdetox wrote: post #79

entee wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with this and the subtlety of the OP’s argument. There is clearly a problem, there are clearly many contributors, I have personally seen The OP situation play out with my female friends/colleagues in STEM (and other “high power” sectors). This does NOT discount that sexism still is a problem nor that there may be cultural/societal norms that influence the family planning issue. It’s a complicated issue, it ne…

Lost in the modern rush for status and money, "obscenely convenient high quality daycare" used to be called "Motherhood" and was supplied by Mothers themselves. Some would argue, the most valuable contribution to society, even if not directly monetized. To sustain a healthy population, we used to need 10 children per fertile woman, which made "stay at home Mother" an obvious necessity for the vast majority of women.…

We should remember that woman != mother. Not all women are straight/want children/have children.

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#89

Post by darawk » Fri, Jan 17, 2020, 8:24 PM UTC

clairity wrote: post #69

darawk wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, that was not the point of my analogy. Whether it is work or not is irrelevant. When I clean my home, that is work, but nobody pays me to do it. I do the work because I receive the benefit of that work. People care for their children for the same reason. And many (most?) couples consider the income of the breadwinner to be shared between the two of them for precisely this reason: Because the couple values the chil…

yes, the employer is beside the point. the implicit assumption that women's work is not valuable is still (structural) sexism. that was the point. edit: e.g., > "Choosing to take on the burden of childcare is choosing to spend less time working."

No, the employer is not beside the point. The employer pays your salary. If you do less work, you get less salary. That isn't saying their work isn't valuable, it is saying it isn't valuable to the employer. The person who values work pays for it. In this case, it is the woman herself who values the work. She is literally choosing to pay herself, in the form of a well cared for child. In the same way that when I clean my home, I am choosing to compensate myself for the effort required to do so by having a clean home.

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#90

Post by bradlys » Fri, Jan 17, 2020, 8:24 PM UTC

tharne wrote: post #67

blub wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Historically, the extended family and neighbors were contributing to raising children. For a couple that doesn't have family close by and lives in a city, parenthood is at least a part-time job.

Part of the issue her is that society, at least in the U.S., has significantly devalued the idea of living close to one's family. Sure, some people don't grow up in economically vibrant areas, but many others move away from family without giving much thought to what they're giving up.

> but many others move away from family without giving much thought to what they're giving up.

I don't know how large of a population that really is. I've found many people move away because their family lives in a place that isn't approachable for them to live in. (e.g. Grew up in the bay area but not with well to do parents - just ones that barely got by. They aren't in careers that afford them $2m homes)

And many move away because they despise them and never wish their children to encounter their family.

I really do think many people give plenty of thought about moving away from family in one way or another. It's their family - they lived with them for something like 18 years. Everyone gives that thought.