An alternative argument for why women leave STEM • Hacker News Board

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#41

Post by SkyBelow » Fri, Jan 17, 2020, 8:03 PM UTC

danharaj wrote: post #4

The fact that women shoulder the primary economic burden of raising children is structural sexism. Sexism is not merely about personal conduct but also how we structure society. For millenia across many cultures women have had their participation in broader society curtailed to the sphere of reproductive and domestic labor. That is injustice. As Morenz notes, we don't have to accept that. We can structure our work so…

>Sexism is not merely about personal conduct but also how we structure society.

Great.

But my personal experience is that this notion seems to vanish as soon as we look at things like rates of workplace deaths, life expectancy, hours worked, imprisonment, or numerous other areas. And even if they don't vanish, the level of attention devoted seems to be remarkably different. Would the way we structure society in regards to structuring our attention for social ills also possibly include sexism?

And I guess such notions can be dismissed as being off topic. As they aren't relevant to the actual issue under discussion. But when we start viewing larger more structural things as sexism, then wouldn't even such dismissal potentially qualify as sexism?

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#42

Post by untog » Fri, Jan 17, 2020, 8:04 PM UTC

amb23 wrote: post #34

Mothers--the vast majority of mothers, not the aristocracic ones we model our current family structures off of--have always worked. They'd strap the baby on their back and go to the fields to plow or gather the harvest or cook or weave or chop firewood. Motherhood as as a full-time job is a modern invention; historically, it was a side gig. I'd love to see a startup tackle this problem: think a benefits platform that…

Not every problem is startup shaped.

> think a benefits platform that allows companies to offer daycare as a benefit

Companies could offer daycare as a benefit today if they wanted to. It isn't their benefits platform holding them back.

In fairness, I can see why companies don't offer daycare as a benefit: it's enormously expensive (particularly in major metros) and it would be very difficult to plan what % of your employees would be utilising it at any one time.

Other countries have solved this problem by making it everyone's problem: the government subsidises it. I won't hold my breath waiting for the US to do the same.

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#43

Post by lonelappde » Fri, Jan 17, 2020, 8:04 PM UTC

krastanov wrote: post #17

o_p wrote: post #12

Its almost like they are biologically and mentally hard-wired to have children! How dares nature to create a unequal duality with specialized roles.

I, and many others, hold the expectation that we are quite capable of overcoming our animal instincts (in this, but importantly in many other aspects also) to make a better world. Especially if the presence of the instinct is used as a pseudo science excuse.

What would I want to overcome the core reason for my existence?

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#44

Post by clairity » Fri, Jan 17, 2020, 8:04 PM UTC

darawk wrote: post #25

danharaj wrote: post #4

The fact that women shoulder the primary economic burden of raising children is structural sexism. Sexism is not merely about personal conduct but also how we structure society. For millenia across many cultures women have had their participation in broader society curtailed to the sphere of reproductive and domestic labor. That is injustice. As Morenz notes, we don't have to accept that. We can structure our work so…

> The fact that women shoulder the primary economic burden of raising children is structural sexism. You seem to be making a fairly subtle point here that I think others might be missing. Which is not that women choosing to take on the burden of childcare represents sexism (which is an argument some people make), but rather that the fact that their making this choice impinges upon their personal economic future is se…

to compare it to playing video games all day is (unwittingly?) falling prey to the very systemic sexism you're trying to fathom--that "women's work" such as childcare is not "work"--that it's economically unproductive and should be "free".

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#45

Post by blub » Fri, Jan 17, 2020, 8:04 PM UTC

YeGoblynQueenne wrote: post #32

>> I’ve got a big scholarship, and a lot of people supporting me to give me the best shot at an academic career — a career I dearly want. But, I also want a family — maybe two or three kids Oh. Up to this point I was keeping notes with my criticism of this article, but this caused me to stop and reconsider. If I may advise the author, I understand how difficult it is to balance life decisions that seem to be at odds,…

Yes, nature and sexual selection were sexist and designed women so that they have to bear the brunt of having children. That's reality, I don't see how it helps in any way to call reality sexist.

And having a career is not the most awesome thing in the world. Many fathers would very much prefer to spend time with their families, but can't because they're expected to first and foremost provide for them.

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#46

Post by fzeroracer » Fri, Jan 17, 2020, 8:05 PM UTC

darawk wrote: post #25

danharaj wrote: post #4

The fact that women shoulder the primary economic burden of raising children is structural sexism. Sexism is not merely about personal conduct but also how we structure society. For millenia across many cultures women have had their participation in broader society curtailed to the sphere of reproductive and domestic labor. That is injustice. As Morenz notes, we don't have to accept that. We can structure our work so…

> The fact that women shoulder the primary economic burden of raising children is structural sexism. You seem to be making a fairly subtle point here that I think others might be missing. Which is not that women choosing to take on the burden of childcare represents sexism (which is an argument some people make), but rather that the fact that their making this choice impinges upon their personal economic future is se…

> But there are men making this choice, and their careers are generally just as negatively impacted as the women who make it.

I don't think this claim holds up to scrutiny. Yes, there are men out there whose careers are negatively impacted by starting a family, but by and large the expectation is a man continues working while a woman drops everything. That's part of the reason why family leave for men is less common.

Which boils down to structural sexism being an issue for both men and women. Men are not allowed to spend time with their family and women are expected to drop everything to take care of the children. In a more equally balanced situation, men would have the opportunity to be the full caregivers while women could continue their career in their field of choice. But right now a lot of options for families depend on your gender.

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#47

Post by tathougies » Fri, Jan 17, 2020, 8:05 PM UTC

amb23 wrote: post #34

Mothers--the vast majority of mothers, not the aristocracic ones we model our current family structures off of--have always worked. They'd strap the baby on their back and go to the fields to plow or gather the harvest or cook or weave or chop firewood. Motherhood as as a full-time job is a modern invention; historically, it was a side gig. I'd love to see a startup tackle this problem: think a benefits platform that…

Daycare isn't an appropriate analogue to your example though. A shift in culture that allows you to bring your children to work would be and would be absolutely sensible for white collar and several blue collar jobs.

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#48

Post by untog » Fri, Jan 17, 2020, 8:05 PM UTC

zajio1am wrote: post #33

danharaj wrote: post #4

The fact that women shoulder the primary economic burden of raising children is structural sexism. Sexism is not merely about personal conduct but also how we structure society. For millenia across many cultures women have had their participation in broader society curtailed to the sphere of reproductive and domestic labor. That is injustice. As Morenz notes, we don't have to accept that. We can structure our work so…

> Sexism is not merely about personal conduct but also how we structure society. What does raising children have to do with society? Decision of having and raising a child is a fundamentally personal, not societal decision. Each pair should decide how they want to split responsibilities of raising a child before its conception, based on their preferences, and society should not force them to any model. Also, it seems…

> What does raising children have to do with society? Decision of having and raising a child is a fundamentally personal, not societal decision.

Of course it isn't. Every society needs an up and coming younger generation as the older generation stops working. That is absolutely a problem on a societal level.

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#49

Post by ThrustVectoring » Fri, Jan 17, 2020, 8:06 PM UTC

There's a big tendency to ignore the price at which career success is sold. You have to give up more fulfilling and creative work, perhaps, or spend long hours in front of a screen on difficult yet boring tasks, or put in years and years of all-encompassing work in various qualification gauntlets. Not having paid the price for fame in academic STEM, I have no jealousy of the success these people have found - they have their fame, I have my free time.

I think a big issue in the study of gender differences in work is that it is much easier to quantify the salary earned than the price one must pay in order to be successful in the field. About the best you can do is compare sub-populations that have paid roughly the same price - eg, urban childless single college-educated adults. At that point, studies generally show an insignificant gender difference in wages and success.

So, why is there a gendered component to participation in high-pay/high-sacrifice fields? I've not seen any sort of hard data, so I'd have to speculate. If you made me single out a candidate for investigation, I'd have to look into the how the heterosexual dating market will asymmetrically treat career success. People respond to incentives, and dating success is one hell of an incentive.

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#50

Post by Jagat » Fri, Jan 17, 2020, 8:06 PM UTC

blub wrote: post #38

amb23 wrote: post #34

Mothers--the vast majority of mothers, not the aristocracic ones we model our current family structures off of--have always worked. They'd strap the baby on their back and go to the fields to plow or gather the harvest or cook or weave or chop firewood. Motherhood as as a full-time job is a modern invention; historically, it was a side gig. I'd love to see a startup tackle this problem: think a benefits platform that…

Historically, the extended family and neighbors were contributing to raising children. For a couple that doesn't have family close by and lives in a city, parenthood is at least a part-time job.

Also, mothers didn't have to keep an eye on the kids all the time past infancy. It was fairly common to leave them on their own with other kids to play, only ensuring they're fed on time.

And once they reached a sufficient age (10 or 12), children usually helped the family with their craft.

Before the industrial revolution, what's considered norm today was the norm only for aristocrats.