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An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

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Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#181
post #117

Maybe I'm missing something, but this seems to be typical sexism: there's work at work which is paid, and work at home which is not. Men do little enough of the latter, that doing the paid work isn't a problem. Women do such a large part of the former, that they feel the need to chose between which part get done. Sure, the positive way to change this, is to reduce the unpaid work (child care professionals are paid, c…

> this seems to be typical sexism: there’s work at home which is paid, and work at home which is not

If it’s not paid, how do those doing it live?

Tax documents call the salary worker + home maker combo “household income”, which may be an appropriate way of thinking about the household getting paid and the household looking after the home.

This applies regardless of the genders of the happy couple, so I’m not sure it’s ‘sexism’.

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#182
post #87

I can't speak for women, and I'm just smart enough not to try. But what I can say is that I don't hold all of the values that I did as a young man. I'm not excited about the same things, and today I find some of those ideas uncomfortably naive or even off-putting. As I've engaged in more activities, as I've socialized with more people, I've encountered many more ideas and a lot of nuance. Nothing has simple answers a…

I think there are plenty of people who believe "if you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem." I'm lucky enough that my job is both interesting and impactful. The people that surround me are either incredible scientists or like working for a company that strives to, and does, make an impact in the world.

I think it's perfectly fine to not care about your job to a higher degree than necessary, and I also think it's fine to seek out work based on social impact rather than salary. Most people can't have it both ways, and end up having to make a choice at some point.

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#183
post #87

I can't speak for women, and I'm just smart enough not to try. But what I can say is that I don't hold all of the values that I did as a young man. I'm not excited about the same things, and today I find some of those ideas uncomfortably naive or even off-putting. As I've engaged in more activities, as I've socialized with more people, I've encountered many more ideas and a lot of nuance. Nothing has simple answers a…

> And one of the consequences of this is that I'm not confident that if I show up to interview at a startup that I'm going to exhibit the degree of 'passion' they're looking for. This is good, though. If you faked the passion, you might wind up surrounded by lunatics who actually believe their iOS app is going to save the world. Also, this "passion", most of the time, is just a word that has been co-opted by the owne…

Yeah, I had that pattern in mind as I was choosing my phrasing.

Coworkers know that they can come to me and say, "hey dude, your code is busted and 4 people can't get work done," I'll drop everything and fix it if I can't give you a workaround (and it'll bug me until I do fix it). I like that passion in others. I get into a little trouble when that passion is about completely fixable things that are dragging down productivity and morale. I'm not particularly repentant about that either.

But when it's some tie telling me we have to work weekends because they didn't listen when we told them "shipping this functionality by April 3rd is a dangerous fiction and you need to come up with a new plan?" you're on your own pal. If you can't hear 'no' then you can't make useful contingencies. Also it probably means you don't respect the people I respect and that's gonna be a problem.

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#184
post #34

Mothers--the vast majority of mothers, not the aristocracic ones we model our current family structures off of--have always worked. They'd strap the baby on their back and go to the fields to plow or gather the harvest or cook or weave or chop firewood. Motherhood as as a full-time job is a modern invention; historically, it was a side gig. I'd love to see a startup tackle this problem: think a benefits platform that…

It may have also been the case, that before industrialization, metal smelting, and anything-faster-than-walking the world was inherently safe. Daycare only become necessary once transportation, tools that could cut, and exposed toxins became abundant. Imagine a world were all parents let their children roam the streets from dawn til dinner, child-right-of-way, and any harm befalling a child was universally met with p…

> It may have also been the case, that before industrialization, metal smelting, and anything-faster-than-walking the world was inherently safe.

I would disagree: historically, kids had to cope with other threats - illnesses, toxic or otherwise deadly animals, general accidents that are "tiny nothings" today could cripple or even kill you back then because there were no antibiotics...

Back 200 years ago, this only worked because people bred like rabbits. Partially of course because there was no birth control (or its usage, e.g. intestines as condoms, frowned upon by the church) , but also because if you had 10 kids it didn't matter if all survived and losses were expected/built in. Now with people having only one child or two, these must be protected to ensure family survival, and that is where helicoptering comes from.

> When our workplaces have a spot for our cars and not our children, should be surprised that car ownership climbs and fertility falls?

The other idea would be to provide livable wages again. I am 28 now, my father was barely 20 and a fresh police officer when I was born - but he could solely fund me, my sister, my mother and himself, saving enough on the side for a downpayment on a 100+ m2 flat.

Today? Many young policemen have to work side gigs to make rent, and my s/o and I plan for the first kid in 3 years from now because without us both working (she's finishing her MSc) we don't stand a chance to financially survive, and forget about saving anything or buying a place to live if our parents would not support us financially. And that doesn't even include the question "who will stay home for how much time/reduce their hours".

Provide real wages, limit workdays to 4x6 or 5x6 hours a week (and ENFORCE this) and whoops, there are the children that have been missing. If people don't feel safe they don't have kids.

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#185
post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> STEM fields rarely pay even close to what consulting, law and medicine pay. Peers of equivalent talent in those 3 professions are generally making double to triple (if not more) by the time STEM graduates reach the same moment in their personal lives. These statements couldn't be further from the truth. You don't need to hang out on HN for long to figure out that FAANG SWEs comfortably make upwards of 400k in their…

SWE's are a tiny slice of 'STEM' and by far the most profitable. How much do you think the average phd in biology makes? maybe 30k/y till 27, then 45k/y till 30, then followed by 75-90?

This is why I have a bit of an aneurysm whenever all of these wildly disparate things are lumped together under the umbrella of "STEM". Notably, we keep medicine in the acronym, but in almost all discussions, doctors and nurses and everything else that would fit under that heading are forked out already. - Edit: derp, it's Math, not medicine, but there's an indication of how brain-rotted I've gotten trying to follow this subject.

Each of them is it's own world with it's own context and it's own problems.

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#186
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, nature and sexual selection were sexist and designed women so that they have to bear the brunt of having children. That's reality, I don't see how it helps in any way to call reality sexist. And having a career is not the most awesome thing in the world. Many fathers would very much prefer to spend time with their families, but can't because they're expected to first and foremost provide for them.

Nature and sexual selection have nothing to do with it. A complete lack of societal support for women who want to have children and maintain a career in STEM academia (or similar) is all there is to it. >> Many fathers would very much prefer to spend time with their families, but can't because they're expected to first and foremost provide for them. Why do the fathers "have to provide"? Why is it so difficult for a m…

Society is supporting women who raise children and men who provide. This worked quite fine for the history of human civilization, but it's painful for women that want to build careers and men who want to be with their families.

First of all, there are very many people that are content with that situation. There is no easy solution for those that aren't, because nature does play a huge part and those 9 months and at least the first year are very important for the baby and mother. There is no way the father can provide the same emotional and physical support, so he might as well ensure that his family is otherwise taken care of.

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#187

Before modern times, the grandparents fulfilled much of the role of watching the kids while the moms worked. In fact, some have posited that this is why humans live long enough to be grandparents - it's an evolutionary advantage. But in modern society, we tend to cast off our grandparents.

Not necessarily cast off, but we’re so mobile now that we move too far away from our grandparents to be able to lean on them for childcare (my wife’s parents live in a different country…)

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#188
post #60

I think the author buried the lede here. My biggest takeaway from the article is that you'd have to be an absolute sucker to work in academia given how poorly you'll be treated. Each person that puts up with this only makes the problem worse, giving at least tacit approval to the status quo. If folks were to start opting out of academia in larger numbers for jobs in private industry, schools would be forced to improv…

> My biggest takeaway from the article is that you'd have to be an absolute sucker to work in academia given how poorly you'll be treated.

And women don't have the luxury of putting up with that BS.

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#189
post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From what I can see, tenured professor at an elite school is a pretty good gig. But it's a really tough gig to land, may not pay very well compared to private industry (assuming it's in a well-compensated field), and may force their partner to live somewhere the other employment opportunities aren't great because your own job mobility is likely pretty limited.

Feels almost like the minor league / major league situation in professional sports. Minor league baseball players are generally not paid a living wage, and major league players start around half a million dollars a year. Obviously many players are doing everything they can to reach that dream job (even if most fail). That idea of being a comfortable tenured professor at a great school is a dream for many. And obvious…

Yeah. I forget what the term is but there are a number of occupations where's there's a big gap between the "lottery winners" and the hoi polloi.

Arguably even the winners in academia don't make that much in terms of money but they're still viewed as successful professionals, have a decent lifestyle, and do OK--especially if they're not in the highest cost areas.

Re: An alternative argument for why women leave STEM

#190

Before modern times, the grandparents fulfilled much of the role of watching the kids while the moms worked. In fact, some have posited that this is why humans live long enough to be grandparents - it's an evolutionary advantage. But in modern society, we tend to cast off our grandparents.

I wonder how much the feeling is one-sided. I visit my grandparents more often than they visit me (even generously discounting for physical ability, income, and the one-to-many relationship).

I think the way to measure this might be grandparents moving out of state of family (think Arizona and Florida).

Obviously the stigma of aging should get the bulk of the responsibility here.

Any got any advice on how to re-norm grandparents? I'm hesitating on moving out of state during my kids early childhood.

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