I killed my teenager’s fancy college dreams • Hacker News Board

Re: I killed my teenager’s fancy college dreams

#251

Post by jki275 » Fri, Dec 27, 2019, 8:46 PM UTC

dragonwriter wrote: post #236

jki275 wrote: post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I served in the military for twenty three years. My sample size is thousands of times yours. The odds are very low.

> The odds are very low. The odds are very high for post-9/11 veterans (and higher the more of their period of service is post-9/11 within that group), who are more likely to have been deployed and seen combat than veterans of earlier eras (both because of optempo and organizational changes that have increased the teeth to tail ratio of uniformed services as support functions have been moved to contracted support.) T…

No, they’re not.

I retired last year.

I deployed to Afghanistan multiple times.

I’m literally someone who experienced the life you’re trying to tell me about. Your studies are mostly bullshit written to drive an agenda.

Re: I killed my teenager’s fancy college dreams

#252

Post by badbluesick » Fri, Dec 27, 2019, 8:47 PM UTC

JakeTheAndroid wrote: post #150

david38 wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This. Pushing college the way we do helps to stigmatize the trades. Why don’t we push the trades? We give the impression they are “lesser”.

I may live in a bubble in this scenario growing up with parents and their friends that did painting/contracting/electrical/plumbing/flooring/etc. but I don't ever hear them as stigmatized. I think a lot of people have a real solid view of these jobs; Physically demanding with low top end rewards. Few people go into those jobs or unions and make 200k a year. People def make a livable wage, but it's very demanding work…

Most of us are not actual engineers (registered, and with a seal). We are software developers.

Re: I killed my teenager’s fancy college dreams

#253

Post by marcus_holmes » Fri, Dec 27, 2019, 8:47 PM UTC

roenxi wrote: post #208

marcus_holmes wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is this correlation or causation though? Are young people who get through a degree course then super focused on getting as much money as they can because they have all this debt? As opposed to people who don't have mountains of student debt, and can then afford to take lower-paying, better-for-their-life jobs? Huge debt is really stressful, and hard on mental health. I don't know the comparative suicide rates of elec…

There is also another aspect to the correlation-causation argument. The kids in college are presumably the smart ones in the cohort. We expect them to have much better outcomes than the rest based on intelligence even without getting a degree.

Does intelligence correlate to either education or wealth? I didn't think it did...

Re: I killed my teenager’s fancy college dreams

#254

Post by lapnitnelav » Fri, Dec 27, 2019, 8:47 PM UTC

jlg23 wrote: post #215

mnm1 wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, but you're gambling that you will survive and that you will survive intact. A life full of PTSD or without legs or arms or eyes isn't worth a million a year, let alone $60 to $125k. Then there's the very real possibility of dying. Not to mention the high risk of suicide afterwards. Given those risks, I can't see how the military is a good option.

I get the overall sentiment because I am born well-enough-off and I agree that you are basically signing away your health or even life (after all, no regular mechanic will have to fix a car in a shootout). OTOH, lots of people don't have my fortunate background and loving but poor parents can only do so much. Housing and food being taken care of and a paycheck on top is a very good incentive if the other choice is to…

Wouldn't building a society where people don't have to make such critical choices out of desperation be the best way to tackle this problem?

Re: I killed my teenager’s fancy college dreams

#255

Post by marcus_holmes » Fri, Dec 27, 2019, 8:48 PM UTC

learc83 wrote: post #138

marcus_holmes wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is this correlation or causation though? Are young people who get through a degree course then super focused on getting as much money as they can because they have all this debt? As opposed to people who don't have mountains of student debt, and can then afford to take lower-paying, better-for-their-life jobs? Huge debt is really stressful, and hard on mental health. I don't know the comparative suicide rates of elec…

>As opposed to people who don't have mountains of student debt, and can then afford to take lower-paying, better-for-their-life jobs With income based repayment, you pay 10% of your disposable income (income over 1.5x the poverty rate) , so this isn't really much of an issue.

To maintain your debt, yes. But to clear it, and finally be free of it, you need to earn a lot of money. That is bound to focus the mind somewhat.

Re: I killed my teenager’s fancy college dreams

#256

Post by TomVDB » Fri, Dec 27, 2019, 8:48 PM UTC

xwdv wrote: post #99

TomVDB wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your first paragraph is absolutist, judgemental, and, frankly, very naive. Our household has very open finances. We have dinner table talks about dollar cost averaging, compounded growth, and investing in broad mutual funds. Kids have a bank account with debit card at 14, and a personal Vanguard account at 18, as well as a Roth IRA in which we match their taxable earnings. And the kids know that making money is hard:…

Well then I just hope that youngster is also prepared to find some creative ways to make money.

I hope so too.

Just don’t assume that avoiding the parental flaws that you think you’ve identified to be the root is a silver bullet.

Re: I killed my teenager’s fancy college dreams

#257

Post by GreeniFi » Fri, Dec 27, 2019, 8:53 PM UTC

I sometimes wonder if the main difference between the US and EU economies is that in the EU, the state(s) have largely identified demand inelastic goods and services and regulated their supply: health, tertiary education, housing (more or less). Where these are not regulated, two things happen: prices shoot up and finance providers move in to finance access, creating debt traps. I’m trying not to think about Brexit too much, but one of my indicators for, “this was a bad/good idea” is the extent to which the health, education, housing sectors are further deregulated.

Re: I killed my teenager’s fancy college dreams

#258

Post by non-entity » Fri, Dec 27, 2019, 8:53 PM UTC

tmpz22 wrote: post #103

jseliger wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

College, for most people, is a joke College is great for the right people but we should be emphasizing vocational education and apprenticeships for many more people. Someone who doesn't want to do the reading or do abstract symbol manipulation is a poor fit for universities: https://seliger.com/2017/06/16/rare-good-political-news-boos... . I know because I've taught many students who don't want to be in school and ar…

The problem with vocational training that /r/personalfinance and similar forums trumpet is that it often points directly to manual labor which leads to severe physical decline and often injury. I hope industries such as plumbing, welding, HVAC, construction, etc. have improved and now teach best practices for safe lifting, mandatory physical therapy, and enforce them - but I don't think they do. Effectively what we'r…

But can you make much money doing many of these trades? Pulling up glassdoor for several jobs typically parroted as "high paid" show you maxing out at $40k-$50k at the very most without niche specializations. And that's with a decade+ of experience. The pay for the entry level / apprenticeship work is insulting and you could make that at a call center. At least in my area that's what I've seen.

Re: I killed my teenager’s fancy college dreams

#259

Post by asdff » Fri, Dec 27, 2019, 8:55 PM UTC

learc83 wrote: post #172

everdev wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I went to a 4-year college, but earned almost all of my money from self-taught programming and design skills. It's hard to justify the ROI on college. At $25k/year for a low-tier college, you'll spend $100k (if you don't need loans). If you take that $100k and put it in the market (avg. 7% annual returns) with 0 contributions for 45 years, you could spend every penny you make and retire at 63 with $2.1M. At more expe…

Low tier college should be about $10k a year and that's assumimg you don't do 2 years a community college. You shouldn't live on campus if you're price sensitive. And you cant include room and board in your calculations because you'd need that anyway. 7% annual returns are also misleading because it ignores inflation. Edit--I've since learned that 7% average already adjusts for inflation.

It doesn't have to be conflated to low tier, state schools are around there as well and cheaper with aid or scholarship. CSU schools are typically pretty cheap considering the areas they are in.

Re: I killed my teenager’s fancy college dreams

#260

Post by gen220 » Fri, Dec 27, 2019, 8:55 PM UTC

hajile wrote: post #124

gen220 wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My girlfriend and I have had this discussion a lot, because she went to a top tier art school. I think you might be underrating three factors in your reasoning: One is the value of very direct feedback and guidance from seasoned, respected professionals. The class sizes in top art programs are very small, and most classes have a frequent, intense “critique” portion where the professor and students tear apart each oth…

I think survivorship bias and the need to justify the education necessarily clouds judgement. If there's one thing the internet has taught me, it's that finding legitimate critique about anything is easy and cheap -- just put it out there and ask. There are lots of online art communities that can do this job very well. High-pressure environments may benefit some people, but people with that kind of drive are likely t…

“Survivorship” bias plays a role, but I think it’s unjust to chalk it up to just that.

The statistics you’ve given are a convincing argument against “arts” in general, but “arts” is a huge range. If you’re graduating a top 5 arts school, you’re generally already in the top percentile, at which point the sample sizes are small and the variance is huge.

The average ROI is very damning, but your choice of school plays a bit role in determining how “average” you are. I’m not arguing in favor of the average art school, I’m defending the ROI of the schools given as examples in the article (Pratt).

That aside, responding to your specific points:

Like a sibling comment implied, it’s not easy to find quality criticism on demand. I stand by this. It’s hard to tell until you’ve been in such an environment, but it really is an order of magnitude’s difference from what you can get online from strangers.

Further, I sort of miscommunicated the value of the environment. It’s more that you’re seeing how other talented people come up with solutions that diverge from your own in fascinating ways. It’s high pressure because everybody is so good, that it demands you to learn and better yourself, not because of deadlines, etc. That was my bad. :P

Finally, while the fundamentals are relatively constant, it’s hard to find them presented in a way that demands 4 semesters of self driven study. I stand by that point.

But yeah, in conclusion I totally agree with the statistics that the average art degree isn’t worth it. The average art position doesn’t require a top 5 degree. The positions that do are remunerative to the extent that they are worth it, in our experience. Finally, not everyone pays the sticker price; in fact, few people (mostly the very wealthy) do.