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I killed my teenager’s fancy college dreams

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Re: I killed my teenager’s fancy college dreams

#171

Post by [deleted] »

learc83 wrote: post #152
starpilot wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Factoring in tuition costs, plumbers earn almost the same lifetime income as doctors: https://www.high-profile.com/plumber-vs-doctor-who-brings-in... And it's generally not a life threatening career.

That's complete bullshit. I've known plenty of plumbers, I've never met one who had almost $1 million saved up by 33--which is the example they are using. Sure some small percentage of plumbers might make $90k after 5 years and manage to seriously save. But that's not anywhere close to normal. Also even with the cherry picked example of a union plumber who is unbelievably disciplined with respect to saving. And a doc…

[deleted]

Re: I killed my teenager’s fancy college dreams

#172

Post by learc83 »

everdev wrote: post #165
simonsarris wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Statistically, you still earn way more with a degree than without. This is becoming less and less true for lots of cohorts. I suspect it will stop correlating for everyone soon. From a few days ago: "Is College Still Worth It? The New Calculus of Falling Returns" by Center for Household Financial Stability, St Louis Fed https://www.stlouisfed.org/~/media/files/pdfs/hfs/is-college... > The college wealth premium is…

I went to a 4-year college, but earned almost all of my money from self-taught programming and design skills. It's hard to justify the ROI on college. At $25k/year for a low-tier college, you'll spend $100k (if you don't need loans). If you take that $100k and put it in the market (avg. 7% annual returns) with 0 contributions for 45 years, you could spend every penny you make and retire at 63 with $2.1M. At more expe…

Low tier college should be about $10k a year and that's assumimg you don't do 2 years a community college.

You shouldn't live on campus if you're price sensitive. And you cant include room and board in your calculations because you'd need that anyway.

7% annual returns are also misleading because it ignores inflation. Edit--I've since learned that 7% average already adjusts for inflation.

Re: I killed my teenager’s fancy college dreams

#173

Post by dbspin »

ArmandGrillet wrote: post #81
toolslive wrote: post #11

What I don't understand is: why don't they go to a university in Europe? I just checked for my alma mater: tuition fee is ~500 euro for 1 year. You pay about 4k in rent per year (this is probably too high an estimate). The level of education is high, and the programs are available in English.

List of probable truths when studying in Europe as an American at 18: - You've never left home for more than a month. - There will be few (if any) Americans in a European bachelor's program. - There is a 6 to 9 hours timezone difference with home. - You don't have an easy time getting information compared to with American universities. - The country will not speak English (UK aside). I know they speak english in Fren…

Ireland is also a solution, with several excellent universities.

Re: I killed my teenager’s fancy college dreams

#174

Post by smileysteve »

learc83 wrote: post #152
starpilot wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Factoring in tuition costs, plumbers earn almost the same lifetime income as doctors: https://www.high-profile.com/plumber-vs-doctor-who-brings-in... And it's generally not a life threatening career.

That's complete bullshit. I've known plenty of plumbers, I've never met one who had almost $1 million saved up by 33--which is the example they are using. Sure some small percentage of plumbers might make $90k after 5 years and manage to seriously save. But that's not anywhere close to normal. Also even with the cherry picked example of a union plumber who is unbelievably disciplined with respect to saving. And a doc…

I'd guess this might have some confusion of average and median one way or the other.

Example: In 2010 the median lawyer made 78k a year while the average made 120k. Note the 50% difference.

Re: I killed my teenager’s fancy college dreams

#175

Post by rayiner »

pen2l wrote: post #58
rayiner wrote: post #16

These parents are heroes. > A couple months ago, my 17-year-old daughter’s guidance counselor called her into his office to ask pretty much the only question that adults ask high school seniors: “What colleges are you applying to?” When Ella tossed off a handful of universities, he said, “Have you thought about going to art school?” This is goddamn malpractice. > Like most parents, who save on average $18,000 for the…

I recall you have two children -- do you teach them as such? I ask for a particular reason: I think you're easily one of the smartest guys in this forum, and your children are likely to be similarly smart. So, there are two games out there for us to play -- 1) as you say, the HVAC technicians and roofers who actually make a pretty comfortable salary and 2) the uber smarts, the googlers and the founders. Even a libera…

My kids are small, so jury's out on how smart they will end up being. The approach we've taken with them so far is to ground them in sober reality. (I feel like a lot of forces, both in school and media, try to insulate kids from how the economy works. It's like getting packaged meat in the store and not knowing how animals are raised and slaughtered and processed.) We're fortunate to be able to afford many luxuries (private schools, maids). But we try to help the kids understand that there is a link between these luxuries and the fact that mommy and daddy work on the weekends. Life presents lots of learning opportunities, such as the $700 heating-oil bill we got the other day. We live near the Naval Academy, so the older one also understands that the young people she sees in uniform are learning important skills and will one day risk their lives to defend the comfortable world around her that she shouldn't take for granted. Being from Bangladesh also offers the opportunity to teach what the world is like for all the people who aren't so fortunate to live in America.

I don't agree with folks who say everyone should just go to trade school. There are lots of good, high-demand jobs that require a college degree. That is also part of the reality that kids need to understand. My kids will start SAT prep in middle school and depending on demonstrated potential, we might encourage trying for a top-tier college. We don't intend to pay for school, because we think debt creates motivation. If either of them demonstrate an interest in law or medicine, I suspect we'll encourage them to go to a state school for undergrad like my wife and I did, because people care more about the terminal degree. Either way, we think it's important to take a gap year to mature after high school. (My wife did; I wish I had done the same.) At the end of the day, a lot depends on the kids. At the same time, my wife and I are not ashamed to be Asian parents. There is a lot you can do to guide, mold, guilt, manipulate, wheedle, and prod your children into making good decisions, and we intend to do it.

Re: I killed my teenager’s fancy college dreams

#176

Post by throwno »

starpilot wrote: post #125
honkycat wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this trade school obsession is foolish. Everyone cargo-cults it as "pragmatic" without actually analyzing what the jobs entail and what you can actually expect to make. Statistically, you still earn way more with a degree than without. You EARN that pay in the trades, and being an electrician is dangerous. The work is hard on your body. A lot of electricians end up on disability. I wasn't very academic growin…

Factoring in tuition costs, plumbers earn almost the same lifetime income as doctors: https://www.high-profile.com/plumber-vs-doctor-who-brings-in... And it's generally not a life threatening career.

So, I assume you pushed your kids to skip medical school and enroll in plumbing classes instead right? How did it go? Are they in the one percent now?

Re: I killed my teenager’s fancy college dreams

#177

Post by whateveracct »

ptmcc wrote: post #91

One of the best things my parents ever did for me (and themselves) was tell me, despite getting accepted, that I was not going to a fancy 40k+/yr school for undergrad. I was angsty about it at the time, but I got over it pretty quick and now looking back appreciate how much stress and debt they saved me from. I went to a magnet high school so there was a lot of pressure to go to a "prestigious" school, and "settling"…

Same here. Got into MIT for engineering and went to a (still good) in-state school for engineering. My parents made it clear that they had saved enough to pay for the in-state tuition (+ an academic scholarship) but that I'd have to go into debt for MIT.

Some of my peers were kind of shitty about it. "So-and-so doesn't like to try so I get their decision." There was definitely a cult of Ivy League there.

I'm very happy with the decision. The in-state school was plenty challenging and I learned a bunch. Work in software now and got a job at a FAANG out of school (thanks to a referral from a college friend), so outcome-wise I can't imagine that sticker price being worth it. Not to mention that culturally I now know that MIT isn't exactly my vibe lol so I probably would've been unhappy.

Re: I killed my teenager’s fancy college dreams

#178

Post by chiefalchemist »

WilliamEdward wrote: post #39
chiefalchemist wrote: post #33

I wish the headline was: "I Helped My Teenager Grow Up. You Should, Too." Student debt sucks. But the myth that these institutions are somehow kidnapping high school students and forcing them to take on massive loans is a myth that needs to be crushed. The market has been flood with cheap easy to get money. Families are lining up to bite off more than they should or could. This (i.e., demand) drives up cost. The cycl…

This myth you've created is a strawman. No one is suggesting colleges physically hold students ransom. The argument is that society is increasingly forcing people to get degrees to keep up with the job climate and it is effectively the same as forcing people into debt.

I'm not questioning the need for a degree or the value. What I'm questing is students (and parents) who insist on attending higher edus that amount to over-priced out-of-state country clubs. No one is going to die if sushi isn't served for lunch/dinner. "Eat great food" and "Best gym ever" will never be on anyone's CV.

Furthermore, in many cases, it's possible to do your first two years "on a budget" and then transfer into a "big name" big budget school with a more valuable degree. No one cares where you did English 101.

There are choices. There are alternatives. However, entitlement and keeping up with the Jones keeps superceding common sense and basic fiscal responsibility. No one is being forced into excessive debt. They are lining up and volunteering. Over and over and over again.

Re: I killed my teenager’s fancy college dreams

#179

Post by katzgrau »

honkycat wrote: post #98
hajile wrote: post #71

And here we have once again why the government shouldn't be subsidizing student loans and shouldn't exclude them from bankruptcy. We need to quit incentivizing sub-prime loans. Unlike the housing crash where the houses retained most of their value and could be sold later, you can't sell your degree to pay back the money. If you're getting a necessary degree, it's very uncommon to default on your loan because you'll b…

I think this trade school obsession is foolish. Everyone cargo-cults it as "pragmatic" without actually analyzing what the jobs entail and what you can actually expect to make. Statistically, you still earn way more with a degree than without. You EARN that pay in the trades, and being an electrician is dangerous. The work is hard on your body. A lot of electricians end up on disability. I wasn't very academic growin…

Both of my parents were union tradespeople, one of them IBEW, working on telephone poles.

I agree that the "trades" meme is merely a "grass is greener" perspective. The low capped pay and lack of personal autonomy (if not strong discouragement of it by the union perks) can make one miserable, especially when you're pushed into it at such an early age based on others' perceived assessment of your abilities.

Also, I was a terrible math and science student in high school, and found my groove in college, only to graduate with a BS in CS in the top 1% of the class of almost 1k. Just a late bloomer I guess.

Re: I killed my teenager’s fancy college dreams

#180

Post by matwood »

mnm1 wrote: post #97
newguy1234 wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Military is also a good option to college, especially if your specialty is a skilled trade. My brother did this straight out of high school. Spent a few years overseas and then eventually changed his specialty to biomedical equipment repair. When he left the service he made 60k/year and after 5 years he is at 125k/year. Also when you are in the service, you are getting paid and if you are overseas, all your bills are…

Yeah, but you're gambling that you will survive and that you will survive intact. A life full of PTSD or without legs or arms or eyes isn't worth a million a year, let alone $60 to $125k. Then there's the very real possibility of dying. Not to mention the high risk of suicide afterwards. Given those risks, I can't see how the military is a good option.

A very small percentage of people in the military ever see combat, and of those an even smaller percentage get hurt. Most jobs in the military are industrial type jobs, so all of those normal dangers do come along. Now, if someone really does want to see combat I'm sure they can maneuver in such a way to make it happen.

The GI bill paying for college is a big benefit of service, but staying in as an officer can also be a great living.

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