I killed my teenager’s fancy college dreams • Hacker News Board

Re: I killed my teenager’s fancy college dreams

#201

Post by variaga » Fri, Dec 27, 2019, 7:34 PM UTC

pnathan wrote: post #112

> While other parents cheerfully promise that “if you get in, we’ll figure out the money part,” That is literally the worst mindset to go in to this about. I profoundly want to see college be free for all, and debt zeroed out. Failing that rather utopian vision, the smart bet is to get a degree that you can pay off in under 10 years without a miracle. I plan to save up enough to help my kid out, which might well invo…

When I was applying to colleges (in the 90's), my parents told me that:

(a) If I applied and was accepted at the local state University, they would pay the full costs for me to attend there. (at the time, ~$10K/yr)

(b) If I was additionally accepted to any other school and decided to go there, they would still pay _me_ the costs of attending the state school, and I would be responsible for for making up any difference in tuition (financial aid, scholarships, loans, side jobs, whatever) to the alternate school.

They did offer a ton of guidance and encouragement towards applying for scholarships, finding jobs, etc. and in the end I did manage to get through a private school in a different state.

It worked out for me - I would probably offer a similar deal to my own children.

Re: I killed my teenager’s fancy college dreams

#202

Post by dragonwriter » Fri, Dec 27, 2019, 7:36 PM UTC

xwdv wrote: post #15

toolslive wrote: post #11

What I don't understand is: why don't they go to a university in Europe? I just checked for my alma mater: tuition fee is ~500 euro for 1 year. You pay about 4k in rent per year (this is probably too high an estimate). The level of education is high, and the programs are available in English.

Because most European universities are crap compared to American ones. Crude, but the truth.

> Because most European universities are crap compared to American ones.

That's probably true if you compare the average European university to the handful of elite American one's, but it's even more true when you compare the average American University to those same elites (even if you exclude all the unaccredited and for-profit schools, which really drag the American quality standards down.)

Re: I killed my teenager’s fancy college dreams

#203

Post by SkyBelow » Fri, Dec 27, 2019, 7:39 PM UTC

SpicyLemonZest wrote: post #34

vsskanth wrote: post #4

Serious question: how does a parent deal with their high school kids wanting to pursue college in a field with a low probability of high lifetime earnings (art, theatre etc.) ? Especially when they are middle class without generational wealth to insulate themselves

I’m pretty sympathetic to the perspective that the solution is not dealing with it. “I want to go to art school” is at the same level as “I want a pony” or “I’m gonna marry a rich girl”; it’s not originally intended as a serious life plan, and you’ll only start to see it as one if the people around you encourage it.

Can't speak to marrying the rich girl, but the 'I want a pony' can be dealt within some situations. Start by finding them a local ranch they can work on and learn horse care lessons from. Work with them on how they will pay for it and what they will have to sacrifice to make the lesson fees (being realistic in the extent they are expected to pay for it compared to something like piano lessons). Generally two or three weeks of cleaning horse poo from hooves will be enough to squash any pony dreams while teaching them a lesson on dipping their toe in the water and trying something out before jumping in.

If they happen to really like it, you can increase their involvement proportional to how much they are willing to sacrifice to support it. This won't work for everyone, but it shows working towards a goal and maybe they get to the point where they are willing to sacrifice other enjoyments in life to be able to stable a pony at a local ranch.

Regardless if they bail or stick with it, valuable life lessons are to be learned. I did this with my niece for a year and she discovered that she really loved horses even to the point of enjoying cleaning them, but also was too afraid of them (after seeing another girl get injured by a spooked horse).

Re: I killed my teenager’s fancy college dreams

#204

Post by dragonwriter » Fri, Dec 27, 2019, 7:41 PM UTC

katzgrau wrote: post #179

honkycat wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this trade school obsession is foolish. Everyone cargo-cults it as "pragmatic" without actually analyzing what the jobs entail and what you can actually expect to make. Statistically, you still earn way more with a degree than without. You EARN that pay in the trades, and being an electrician is dangerous. The work is hard on your body. A lot of electricians end up on disability. I wasn't very academic growin…

Both of my parents were union tradespeople, one of them IBEW, working on telephone poles. I agree that the "trades" meme is merely a "grass is greener" perspective. The low capped pay and lack of personal autonomy (if not strong discouragement of it by the union perks) can make one miserable, especially when you're pushed into it at such an early age based on others' perceived assessment of your abilities. Also, I wa…

> I agree that the "trades" meme is merely a "grass is greener" perspective

Nah, it's a meme being pushed with organized campaigns that take lots of money: it's an attempt to manipulate the labor pool to bring wages down in certain fields by increasing competition for jobs and increasing return to capital.

Of course, so is the similarly heavily promoted “train everyone to code” push.

Re: I killed my teenager’s fancy college dreams

#205

Post by jays » Fri, Dec 27, 2019, 7:42 PM UTC

frankbreetz wrote: post #149

I think at least part of the solution is to involve your children in your finances. I think if they are able to understand your families monthly/yearly budget, they will be much less likely to take on a ton of debt, as they will more likely understand the consequences of their decisions. The financial literacy in this country(USA) is absolutely terrible and I think this is one of the most important things a parent ca…

Agreed. Showing a teenager how much they will make with the career their interested in and then figuring out how much they might afford in student loans is pretty easy to roughly estimate. It’s what should be taught in schools and banks should have limits as well.

But banks and universities don’t wait those things, because it’d jeopardize the easy money.

Re: I killed my teenager’s fancy college dreams

#206

Post by onlyrealcuzzo » Fri, Dec 27, 2019, 7:43 PM UTC

everdev wrote: post #165

simonsarris wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Statistically, you still earn way more with a degree than without. This is becoming less and less true for lots of cohorts. I suspect it will stop correlating for everyone soon. From a few days ago: "Is College Still Worth It? The New Calculus of Falling Returns" by Center for Household Financial Stability, St Louis Fed https://www.stlouisfed.org/~/media/files/pdfs/hfs/is-college... > The college wealth premium is…

I went to a 4-year college, but earned almost all of my money from self-taught programming and design skills. It's hard to justify the ROI on college. At $25k/year for a low-tier college, you'll spend $100k (if you don't need loans). If you take that $100k and put it in the market (avg. 7% annual returns) with 0 contributions for 45 years, you could spend every penny you make and retire at 63 with $2.1M. At more expe…

45 years from now, $2.1M adjusted for inflation (3%) is $533K. A lot of these compound interest calculators don't show you the values adjusted for inflation. It sounds great when you get 21x your investment. 5x doesn't sound as great, but it's more realistic.

Re: I killed my teenager’s fancy college dreams

#207

Post by hajile » Fri, Dec 27, 2019, 7:43 PM UTC

lsc wrote: post #185

hajile wrote: post #71

And here we have once again why the government shouldn't be subsidizing student loans and shouldn't exclude them from bankruptcy. We need to quit incentivizing sub-prime loans. Unlike the housing crash where the houses retained most of their value and could be sold later, you can't sell your degree to pay back the money. If you're getting a necessary degree, it's very uncommon to default on your loan because you'll b…

>Some of my kids seem like they enjoy academics, but others do not. I'll be pushing the latter toward trade school. Average IBEW (electrical union) pay is about $20/hr for an apprentice and $33 for a journeyman. $40,000 to $66,000 with ZERO DEBT right out the gate is nothing to ignore (and that pay can easily double -- especially in your younger years -- if you're willing to travel and put in those extra hours). It s…

College doesn't make someone smart. College doesn't make someone choose to be productive. The decisions that lead to being smart and productive start early in childhood. Unfortunately, dollars spent on early education don't seem to have much of a correlation with success later in life.

Re: I killed my teenager’s fancy college dreams

#208

Post by roenxi » Fri, Dec 27, 2019, 7:44 PM UTC

marcus_holmes wrote: post #126

honkycat wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this trade school obsession is foolish. Everyone cargo-cults it as "pragmatic" without actually analyzing what the jobs entail and what you can actually expect to make. Statistically, you still earn way more with a degree than without. You EARN that pay in the trades, and being an electrician is dangerous. The work is hard on your body. A lot of electricians end up on disability. I wasn't very academic growin…

Is this correlation or causation though? Are young people who get through a degree course then super focused on getting as much money as they can because they have all this debt? As opposed to people who don't have mountains of student debt, and can then afford to take lower-paying, better-for-their-life jobs? Huge debt is really stressful, and hard on mental health. I don't know the comparative suicide rates of elec…

There is also another aspect to the correlation-causation argument. The kids in college are presumably the smart ones in the cohort. We expect them to have much better outcomes than the rest based on intelligence even without getting a degree.

Re: I killed my teenager’s fancy college dreams

#209

Post by lbatx » Fri, Dec 27, 2019, 7:44 PM UTC

honkycat wrote: post #98

hajile wrote: post #71

And here we have once again why the government shouldn't be subsidizing student loans and shouldn't exclude them from bankruptcy. We need to quit incentivizing sub-prime loans. Unlike the housing crash where the houses retained most of their value and could be sold later, you can't sell your degree to pay back the money. If you're getting a necessary degree, it's very uncommon to default on your loan because you'll b…

I think this trade school obsession is foolish. Everyone cargo-cults it as "pragmatic" without actually analyzing what the jobs entail and what you can actually expect to make. Statistically, you still earn way more with a degree than without. You EARN that pay in the trades, and being an electrician is dangerous. The work is hard on your body. A lot of electricians end up on disability. I wasn't very academic growin…

Taking your comment to its logical conclusion, then, no one should become an electrician. Too dangerous. Low (relative to a degree) pay.

Well, who then is going to fulfill this necessary role?

Re: I killed my teenager’s fancy college dreams

#210

Post by throwaway713 » Fri, Dec 27, 2019, 7:46 PM UTC

My sister and I basically copied what our parents did. I got a degree in engineering like my dad (but pivoted to data science), and my sister got a degree in elementary education like my mom. She works much harder than me but earns significantly less and frequently comments about how massive of a mistake it was to go into teaching.

I'm not really sure what the lesson is here other than that the world isn't fair. From my perspective, my sister is generating much more value for the world than I am, and yet all of her efforts result in very little reward.

I'm mixed on what to tell my future children. I want them to do what they love (or what they feel is important), but that may result in a very difficult future financially. I suppose I'll just try to make the trade-offs in career choices as clear as possible and hope they make decisions they won't regret later.