Apple changes Crimea map when viewed from Russia • Hacker News Board

Re: Apple changes Crimea map when viewed from Russia

#231

Post by bjourne » Wed, Nov 27, 2019, 11:14 PM UTC

trymas wrote: post #141

Doctor_Fegg wrote: post #18

This happens pretty much everywhere with every online map. Kashmir, Taiwan, Western Sahara, etc. etc. Apple doing it for one country is not particularly news. The only major-league mapping site I know that doesn't do local alterations is OpenStreetMap, and that's because OSM's attitude is "you want the map to show something else? sure, download the raw data and host your own instance".

> This happens pretty much everywhere with every online map. Kashmir, Taiwan, Western Sahara, etc. etc. Apple doing it for one country is not particularly news. Exactly. Couple days ago, I have entered "Palestine" into google maps. It did not highlight any territory and just showed me generic location of Middle East. On mobile it did not relocate map view at all. AFAIK with disputed territories it was always like tha…

But the Palestine example shows that it does not happen with every disputed territory in the world. If you are living in a country that has recognized Palestine and has diplomatic relations the state (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_recognition_of_t...) it would make sense that "Palestine" would show up on the map. But it doesn't show up either on Google's, Apple's or Bing's map.

Re: Apple changes Crimea map when viewed from Russia

#232

Post by Barrin92 » Wed, Nov 27, 2019, 11:23 PM UTC

hyko wrote: post #148

Apple enjoys all the privileges of being based in a western liberal democracy, but it’s starting to feel like they don’t really believe in those values. All that guff about privacy, the environment, minority rights etc, yet when faced with real tyranny they will do literally anything in return for market access. The lesson is clear: don’t expect soft power alone to topple the autocrats of the 21st Century.

>they will do literally anything in return for market access.

I don't really see the issue in this case because borders are legal fictions and thus for contested borders between major factions there is no single source of truth, so the most accurate thing is indeed simply to display to Russian users the state of the map as understood by Russians and to other parties the way they see it.

Re: Apple changes Crimea map when viewed from Russia

#233

Post by macinjosh » Wed, Nov 27, 2019, 11:24 PM UTC

Everyone knows electronic maps are for navigating through the world as it is but is not a place people tend to make their political statements, right?

Maps have changed in the past. They will change again in the future.

Re: Apple changes Crimea map when viewed from Russia

#234

Post by macinjosh » Wed, Nov 27, 2019, 11:27 PM UTC

MrZongle2 wrote: post #136

1023bytes wrote: post #125

Well, there is no denying that the region is in fact currently governed by Russia. Whether that is right is another question.

And unfortunately it seems like the question that many people are willing to give Apple a pass for.

Do you really think somewhere in Apple HQ Tim Cook gathered everyone around and said Apple is going to make a big political statement, about something they have no part in, but instead of putting out a press release let's just change one part of the map for one country. Puhlease. This is a reflection of current reality.

Re: Apple changes Crimea map when viewed from Russia

#235

Post by macinjosh » Wed, Nov 27, 2019, 11:28 PM UTC

lawnchair_larry wrote: post #155

Why are people under the impression that Crimea is not part of Russia?

Some people like to reject reality and substitute their own. :shrug:

Re: Apple changes Crimea map when viewed from Russia

#236

Post by int_19h » Wed, Nov 27, 2019, 11:28 PM UTC

4bpp wrote: post #215

treden wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This really seems like the Right Way(tm) to approach this because it acknowledges that the google isn't attempting to be an authoritative source for what's really a subjective truth, and it presents the "most true" version of reality based on where you're coming from. And has the added benefit, one imagines, of being even more infuriating to those trying to push their One True Truth down everyone else's throats.

What's subjective there, though? If you go to Crimea and commit a crime (heh), you will be caught by Russian police and hauled before a Russian court. If you start in a point on Crimea and walk towards Kiev or vice versa, you will be stopped by military who will check if you are allowed to enter Ukraine or Russia respectively. We conclude that there is an international border between Crimea and Ukraine, and Crimea is…

It's not that simple. If you go to Crimea and commit a crime without getting arrested, and then travel to Ukraine and they find out, they will arrest you and try you under Ukrainian law.

And if you try to cross the border from Crimea to Ukraine, the Ukrainian side will not ask you if you "want to enter Ukraine". They consider Crimea to be Ukrainian, so they'll treat you as somebody who is already on Ukrainian territory, just passing through an internal checkpoint. Which means that you must have had entered Ukraine legally before, and then traveled from there to Crimea, and back. If you try to enter Crimea from Russia, and then from there to Ukraine, then as far as Ukraine is concerned, you have committed an illegal entry at the moment you entered Crimea without going through a legitimate border checkpoint - so they'll just arrest you for that.

Furthermore, if you try to enter Ukraine at any other border crossing, but they have evidence that you have previously entered Crimea from Russia, they will also treat that as a past illegal entry.

Re: Apple changes Crimea map when viewed from Russia

#237

Post by cpursley » Wed, Nov 27, 2019, 11:30 PM UTC

larnmar wrote: post #223

cpursley wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Get over yourself. The USA overthrew and annexed Hawaii a little more than 100 years ago. Not to mention Texas, Puerto Rico, etc. When we start talking about giving back those territories, I'll start taking everyone's opinion on Crimea seriously.

Giving them back to whom, exactly? Texas voted to join the US, Puerto Rico has repeatedly had independence referenda, and Hawaii is... complicated, but you certainly couldn’t argue that the unelected Hawaiian monarchy was a more legitimate government than the elected US government (also Hawaiian independence polls at around 6%).

And Crimea used to belong to the Ottomans (and the Greeks, and the Italians). Should we give it back to them? I think you made my point for me.

Re: Apple changes Crimea map when viewed from Russia

#238

Post by int_19h » Wed, Nov 27, 2019, 11:31 PM UTC

varjag wrote: post #123

pishpash wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Confederacy also became independent for a few years, before being reabsorbed under the gun. How long do you keep depicting a fiction?

The Confederacy wasn't a distinct nation state but a faction in Civil War. Noone argues that Whites and Reds in Russia were independent nations, or would you? Take Finland: it gained independence in much the same circumstances as Baltic states. The only difference was that USSR was not able to fully occupy it in 1940. That's it, there is no other reason an average Russian would scoff at Balts and respect Finland than…

The Confederate States of America was a distinct state, with its own constitution, government, law, borders, and enforcement of all that.

It was not officially recognized as such by anyone, but de facto it was very much a state, and their goal was to maintain that de facto sovereignty.

Re: Apple changes Crimea map when viewed from Russia

#239

Post by notahacker » Wed, Nov 27, 2019, 11:36 PM UTC

w1nst0nsm1th wrote: post #175

trianglem wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What’s disputed in the Western Sahara?

Some land disputed betweens Morocco and independantist Polisario front.

Or more specifically: the Polisario Front claims the whole of Western Sahara as an independent country, Morocco claims the whole of Western Sahara as an integral part of Morocco; Polisario Front has stable de facto control over a large but barely-inhabited inland portion of Western Sahara with the majority including all the coast being Moroccan-controlled, and Western mapping tends to gloss over it by treating Western Sahara as a single sometimes-unnamed entity with a soft border with the widely-recognised territory of Morocco.

Re: Apple changes Crimea map when viewed from Russia

#240

Post by int_19h » Wed, Nov 27, 2019, 11:36 PM UTC

brutt wrote: post #105

lawnchair_larry wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do you mean by “re-gained” independence? They were part of Russia for centuries prior to that. That was them gaining independence for the first time since like the 1500s or so?

Russia doesn't exist now, because it renamed itself into Ukraine, to avoid confusion with bloody Russian Empire. Russian Federation ≠ Russian Empire (doesn't exist) ≠ Russia (now Ukraine) ≠ town of Russia (now Old Russa). BTW. Romania ≠ Rome (now Italy).

"Rus" (Hellenized as "Rossia", and Latinized as "Ruthenia") was the term used to describe the entire territory from Kiev to Novgorod. Just because it had its capital in Kiev, doesn't mean that modern Ukraine is the only country that can lay claim to the word. Russia, Ukraine, and Belarus are all equally successors to that cultural and historical heritage.