Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Apple changes Crimea map when viewed from Russia

bbc.co.uk

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

101–110 of 303 posts

Re: Apple changes Crimea map when viewed from Russia

#101

Post by pishpash »

varjag wrote: post #89
lawnchair_larry wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do you mean by “re-gained” independence? They were part of Russia for centuries prior to that. That was them gaining independence for the first time since like the 1500s or so?

They became independent around 1918 and occupied in 1940. Plenty of the modern European nation-states emerged in 20th century, including Poland, Norway, Hungary.. would you dispute statehood of those?

The Confederacy also became independent for a few years, before being reabsorbed under the gun. How long do you keep depicting a fiction?

Re: Apple changes Crimea map when viewed from Russia

#103

Post by laretluval »

treden wrote: post #35
anotheryou wrote: post #26

The sentence about google maps is wrong. Google shows whatever you want to see. https://i.imgur.com/2HaIhPh.jpg Google.com.ua users see a state/province border (top image) Google.de users a disputed international boundary (middle image) Google.ru users see an undisputed international boundary and Russian spellings of city names (bottom image). (and I think there are generally no borders shown in the oceans) I made th…

This really seems like the Right Way(tm) to approach this because it acknowledges that the google isn't attempting to be an authoritative source for what's really a subjective truth, and it presents the "most true" version of reality based on where you're coming from. And has the added benefit, one imagines, of being even more infuriating to those trying to push their One True Truth down everyone else's throats.

An alternative would be to present the version of borders which is most likely to be relevant for a traveler in terms of border crossings, visa requirements, etc.

Re: Apple changes Crimea map when viewed from Russia

#105

Post by brutt »

lawnchair_larry wrote: post #72
varjag wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The USA used to depict Baltic states as Soviet-occupied independent states on the maps, and didn't budge until USSR fell apart and the countries regained independence. Growing a spine to stand up for what is right helps. Appeasing a bully is certainly going to cement status quo.

What do you mean by “re-gained” independence? They were part of Russia for centuries prior to that. That was them gaining independence for the first time since like the 1500s or so?

Russia doesn't exist now, because it renamed itself into Ukraine, to avoid confusion with bloody Russian Empire.

Russian Federation ≠ Russian Empire (doesn't exist) ≠ Russia (now Ukraine) ≠ town of Russia (now Old Russa).

BTW. Romania ≠ Rome (now Italy).

Re: Apple changes Crimea map when viewed from Russia

#106

Post by cpursley »

zzzcpan wrote: post #98
cpursley wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, this is factually correct - just Google around for Crimea language maps. While this is true of mainland Ukraine (multilingual), Crimea has a different history. It was Russian speakers from the Russian Empire who displaced Tatars (a Turkish language). There was never a significant Ukrainian speaking population in Crimea. Most Crimeans don't speak any Ukrainian. Just because you don't agree with Russian politics d…

> Most Crimeans don't speak any Ukrainian. No, most Crimeans do speak both Russian and Ukrainian, just like everyone else in Ukraine, since Ukrainian is the only official language and it's pretty much impossible to not be exposed to both languages, especially in education and media. After the fall of Soviet Union all the ethnic Russians in Ukraine (incl. Crimea) had no way of avoiding it and do speak Ukrainian.

Are you Ukrainian? Have you been to Crimea? A language becoming official (which was only very recent) does not magically make everyone fluent. Sure, Crimeans probably all know some A2 level Ukrainian from media. But they are not fluent and are likely speaking Russian or Tartar at home.

Re: Apple changes Crimea map when viewed from Russia

#107

Post by notatoad »

treden wrote: post #35
anotheryou wrote: post #26

The sentence about google maps is wrong. Google shows whatever you want to see. https://i.imgur.com/2HaIhPh.jpg Google.com.ua users see a state/province border (top image) Google.de users a disputed international boundary (middle image) Google.ru users see an undisputed international boundary and Russian spellings of city names (bottom image). (and I think there are generally no borders shown in the oceans) I made th…

This really seems like the Right Way(tm) to approach this because it acknowledges that the google isn't attempting to be an authoritative source for what's really a subjective truth, and it presents the "most true" version of reality based on where you're coming from. And has the added benefit, one imagines, of being even more infuriating to those trying to push their One True Truth down everyone else's throats.

"true" or "not true" is probably the wrong way to frame this. There's no reason Google or Apple should want to be involved in deciding the truth, but they do to be a source of useful information.

Knowing whether or not you're going to be crossing a border is useful information when you're physically close to that border. When you're viewing the same map from 1000km away, the political status of the border is probably more important to you than whether or not you're going to be stopped by border guards.

Re: Apple changes Crimea map when viewed from Russia

#108

Post by zzzcpan »

cpursley wrote: post #106
zzzcpan wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Most Crimeans don't speak any Ukrainian. No, most Crimeans do speak both Russian and Ukrainian, just like everyone else in Ukraine, since Ukrainian is the only official language and it's pretty much impossible to not be exposed to both languages, especially in education and media. After the fall of Soviet Union all the ethnic Russians in Ukraine (incl. Crimea) had no way of avoiding it and do speak Ukrainian.

Are you Ukrainian? Have you been to Crimea? A language becoming official (which was only very recent) does not magically make everyone fluent. Sure, Crimeans probably all know some A2 level Ukrainian from media. But they are not fluent and are likely speaking Russian or Tartar at home.

Like half of the country are speaking Russian at home and at work too by the way. That doesn't mean they don't know Ukrainian.

Re: Apple changes Crimea map when viewed from Russia

#109

Post by brutt »

pishpash wrote: post #101
varjag wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They became independent around 1918 and occupied in 1940. Plenty of the modern European nation-states emerged in 20th century, including Poland, Norway, Hungary.. would you dispute statehood of those?

The Confederacy also became independent for a few years, before being reabsorbed under the gun. How long do you keep depicting a fiction?

When Russian Empire, AKA Jail of Nations, fall apart, all nations were officially granted power to make their own national countries. Then Russian Federation started war against these independent nations and captured most of them back, killing dozens of millions in the process, but existence of these new countries was not disputed (except for few ones, like Kuban People's Republic, etc).

It's not same as separatism. It was similar to fall of other empires.

Re: Apple changes Crimea map when viewed from Russia

#110

Post by polski-g »

keymone wrote: post #81
polski-g wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The majority of the people in Crimea are and were Russian at the time of vote for annexation. It makes sense that genetic Russians would want to reunite with their people.

First, you’re conflating language with national identity here, second you’re completely ignoring Crimean tatars that we’re repressed and mass deported from Crimea by Stalin, third you’re not making any sense anyway, because just because major chunk of local population wants to secede - can’t be ground for annexation and starting war, that’s just idiotic.

The Ukrainian/Russian mainland war is a separate issue from Russians living in Crimea wanting to be reunited with their countrymen.
Post reply on HN