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Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

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Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

#341

Post by marak830 »

mercer wrote: post #305
marak830 wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To the downvoters. Really? I'm literally asking why here, while my karma is really a non issue, I'm wondering why you would down vote an honest question. (Thanks again to the people who gave me informative posts, I have some things to research, just need to find the time!)

your comment is back in the black now, so I'd say generally don't worry about these things. A lot of people reflexively downvote stuff, but in many cases this is correct within 12h or so. That's been my experience most of the time, at least. Complaining about it is often brutally punished by more downvotes though, so beware!

Haha yeah I was taking a risk, but I was pissed of lol

Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

#342

Post by javagram »

avierax wrote: post #334
needusername wrote: post #213

To me this seems like a play against OpenJ9 which is at least partially based on OpenJDK. Rumor has it that AdoptOpenJDK lost their TCK license because they also published OpenJ9 builds. I'm a bit surprised by this given that IBM is a long time license holder and I can remember JavaOne keynotes where Oracle celebrated IBM "joining" OpenJDK.

Where can I read more about AdoptOpenJDK losing its TCK license? Is there any post? Any leak from their team?

I searched for this myself. Found a tweet from last year and the current statement on their site. https://adoptopenjdk.net/quality.html

> Java Compatibility Kit (JCK) / TCK Compliance

> At this stage the London Jamocha Community CIC (aka LJC) has not been able to reach an agreement with Oracle to use the Java SE Technology Compatibility Kit (TCK) under the terms of the OpenJDK Community TCK License Agreement (OCTLA).

> We will continue to work with Oracle on this matter.

> All AdoptOpenJDK binaries are tested with our suite of functional, integration, stress, and performance tests, including real workloads from popular languages and applications. We are very confident in the quality of our builds.

Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

#343

Post by ngcc_hk »

ergothus wrote: post #321
victor106 wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> except Kotlin no new JVM language. What about Clojure? I 100% agree with you on Java. Some of these people who compare Java to Cobol have no idea. It’s hard for anyone to predict the future in tech but at this point Java is so widely used in the enterprise that it’s foolhardy to think that Java will disappear anytime soon. To the credit of the Java community they keep the language relevant and refreshed. I agree it…

> Some of these people who compare Java to Cobol have no idea....at this point Java is so widely used in the enterprise that it’s foolhardy to think that Java will disappear anytime soon. Isn't that PART of the Java to Cobol comparison? Someone making that comparison wouldn't be saying that Java will disappear anytime soon.

COBOL is a valid comparison in terms of its space occupied and the verbosity the language is. The difference is cobol is really mainframe era and java is mini / unix era. Its client side except via phone is largely gone. But like cobol still in mainframe apps, so would be java. We do not see that gone as mini/unix not dying.

The windows server running java is an area I am not sure and not much encountered. But windows and Microsoft languages are the only competitor here.

Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

#344

Post by nullwasamistake »

vfc1 wrote: post #23

The Java ecosystem has been slowly dying for years, it's already the new Cobol at this stage. I have the impression that a lot of the mindshare has switched to the Node and Javascript ecosystem, especially the frontend devs, via the Typescript / Angular path, which is a natural path to Java developers due to the comfort given by familiar concepts like static types, classes, etc. When I used to do Java, I always found…

Java is much closer to C++ than COBOL. COBOL has been massively obsolete for decades. Java has a lot of historical cruft but the basic syntax is still somewhat modern, mostly based off of C++ and agruable better.

Like C++, it's modern features are being slowly added. There's a huge difference between Java 8 and 11, in performance and features. Innovation is hardly dead.

Java EE and Spring are both terrible. I recommend trying some of the newer frameworks out there to see how much nicer things have become. DropWizard is my favorite right now.

I'm no Oracle fan, but Java is more "open" in many ways than it has been since the beginning. It wasn't till a few years ago we had a feature-complete high performance OSS implementation as the standard.

Oracle will try to ruin it, but the GPL JDK and history of projects being forked away from them makes it fairly safe. It's not in the interest of any Java user to have more than one standard.

IMO Java isn't going anywhere. It's been top 3 most popular language for over a decade. JS is somewhat promising but will never match Java in performance and multi-threading support due to core design decisions. Go is too verbose to get industry buyin to replace Java in most use cases. WASM is promising in the far future but it will take years to have a full browser and server ABI. The only real contenter to replace Java is C# and so far it's not getting much traction.

If anything killed Java it would be C#. Value types, no type Erasure, unsafe code and some native vector support. But it hasn't and probably won't ever dethrone Java. Java has a combination of decent features and an insanely huge amount of library support that makes it the default language of many companies.

Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

#345

Post by marak830 »

mercer wrote: post #308
marak830 wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hmm I hadn't really considered cross-platform(as I mentioned above aside from a forced forey into Mac ATM dur to work, I've always been windows). I'm thinking perhaps I should take some primers on non windows coding, and the advantages there of. Anyone have any good beginners links (note I'm fairly adept at Java, .net, vb and such, just trying to find a good place - and reason - to learn something cross platform). Pr…

Perhaps the biggest 'bang for your buck' would be Javascript or Python. The former because it's everywhere, and the latter because it's almost everywhere and probably more pleasant than the former. And possibly better if you're time-constrained, because you could pick one of the areas where it's a staple. Either way, both are quite un-windows, and un-corporate, but used all over the place. I'm suggesting them because…

Actually (about 7+ years ago?), I did dip into python and wrote a stock taking and auto order generating system for one of my kitchens in it, never really got the chance to revisit it after that though. I do remember how surprised I was at how quickly I got it done (I was coming from vb6 at the time).

I may have some automation things I can do at my work soon, I might write up a blog about that, interesting idea! (Queue the 'if I only had more time' chant haha)

Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

#346

Post by ngcc_hk »

heelix wrote: post #175
bborud wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Reality is subjective and local. At any given time most developers will neither have much real choice when it comes to technology nor have a longer term perspective. Hence most developers will stick to what they know and what organizational inertia seems the path of least resistance. The comparison to COBOL is good for several reasons.

My first bit of production Java code was an applet that used cobra to talk with COBOL in the Java 1.0 days. When I'm bridging new languages to Java codebases, I always wonder if this is the 'new hotness' I'll be driving next.

Similar position. Corba overhead too high and we use a middleware to handle it. But the aim is to migrate away those we can from mainframe. And use java in lieu of cobol.

Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

#347

Post by pron »

Rattled wrote: post #339
pron wrote: post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The Java ecosystem has been slowly dying for years, it's already the new Cobol at this stage. This has been said for at least the last ten years. Not only is Java not dying, but companies like Apple and Facebook (not to mention Netflix, Amazon and Google, that are mostly or largely Java already) are increasing their investment in the platform. This was not the case when COBOL was 25. The reason this is so is that J…

> Oracle has just open sourced the entire JDK. Last time I had to download a JDK I got a warning about having to pay a license for commercial use. I think most enterprises care more about the licensing arrangement than access to the source.

The licensing arrangement is that the JDK is now completely free (rather than mixed free/paid as before). Oracle offers the same JDK under two different license -- one, commercial, for those who wish to buy support, and one free. That page you went to described the two options, and referred you to the free one: http://jdk.java.net/

Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

#348

Post by udkl »

tootie wrote: post #215
vfc1 wrote: post #23

The Java ecosystem has been slowly dying for years, it's already the new Cobol at this stage. I have the impression that a lot of the mindshare has switched to the Node and Javascript ecosystem, especially the frontend devs, via the Typescript / Angular path, which is a natural path to Java developers due to the comfort given by familiar concepts like static types, classes, etc. When I used to do Java, I always found…

JavaScript is practically stone age compared to Java. Debugging is a nightmare. Documentation is a nightmare. Scaling is a nightmare. NPM is a thousand monkeys at a thousand typewriters. Java suffers from having some 20-year old codebases because it's been so popular for so long but I can open up a 2004 WebLogic project in Eclipse or InteeliJ and trace everything it's doing. And modern Java has added all the nice fea…

This. Sure JavaScript is moving fast .... but it's moving haphazardly.

Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

#349

Post by marcus_holmes »

StevePerkins wrote: post #107
dtech wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Too little too late, and I highly doubt that (5-year-old) Valhalla will deliver even one of the promised features (value types) in the next 3 years. Remember that the original plan was to have all Valhalla features in Java 10. Java/JVM was in the ideal position to dominate the software world for the whole 21th century 15 years ago. Instead they did an IE6 and stagnated for so long that their competitors became plain…

> webassembly [is] eating JVM's cake It's hard for me to take all the "Java is dying" threads seriously when they don't even seem to understand where Java plays. Webassembly ? Really? That's a client-side tech, and 99.999% of Java devs ceded the browser battleground pre-9/11. Java's bread and butter is EAI, ETL, and server-side business application development. Particularly with pieces requiring heavily distributed d…

I've heard that attitude before. C++ developers working in finance around 2000. They were damn sure that no-one was going to switch to any other language because reasons.

I'm sure there's still a bunch of C++ devs working in finance, and making decent money, but I think the industry has moved on now.

The industry always moves on

Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

#350

Post by ajnin »

781 wrote: post #249
dtech wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For me it's more a lesson about how unanimous votes, or unanimous - N can become problematic. In the EU the same is happening. Poland and Hungary have found a loophole allowing them to ignore EU rules and sanctions while still profiting from subsidies and market access. All sanctions against a member state require unanimous-1 (all states except the sanctioned member) votes and Poland is vetoing all sanctions against…

France broke the EU deficit rules for over a decade. Everybody talked about it, but nobody acted. If a EU state refuses to do a thing, that's basically it. https://piie.com/blogs/realtime-economic-issues-watch/france...

Germany's been breaking the EU's excessive trade surplus rules for more than ten years as well, and nobody even talks about it ! Go figure.
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