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Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

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Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

#171

Post by cesarb »

wangii wrote: post #30

how hard will it be to work out a script, that update the namespace automatically? it would even be possible to do that in the bytecode level I think. I think Eclipse Foundation is f*cked, not by Oracle but its bureaucracy, and inability to reinvent itself.

> how hard will it be to work out a script, that update the namespace automatically? it would even be possible to do that in the bytecode level I think.

Java has reflection, so classes can be loaded by name at runtime (and the name might have come from a XML file somewhere, or be the result of string concatenation); also, the name of a class can be easily obtained so code can depend on that (for instance, a logging configuration XML file). That's before considering that some libraries generate classes on the fly (by dynamically generating and loading bytecode, which include class names).

Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

#172

Post by wolfspider »

inapis wrote: post #138
dtech wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The .NET ecosystem is an order of magnitude smaller than the JVM ecosystem. Up until ~3 years¹ ago C#/.NET also meant a fully Microsoft and Windows environment for all practical purposes². This is changing and Microsoft seems to be embracing open source and Linux, but it takes time for a 20 year old ecosystem to fully make the transition. ¹ The story is Steve Balmer was very anti-open source and forbade most interop…

That fully Microsoft and windows stack has had ripple effects. At least from my perspective in South Asia. First the price was a deal breaker. Second, people who started with C# quickly found their only employment opportunities to be at large companies. Those who started with Java/Node/Ruby had a much wider array to choose from. Third, when people jumped to start their own companies, Java/Node/Ruby/Python/Go won by a…

Funny you should say that because it was Sun Microsystems itself which caused me to switch to C#. Starting out in my career I worked for serial entrepreneurs exclusively to learn from them and one such company used Sun Java for their main product. Hello there! Every time the Java development chatroom crashed for a couple years or so it was me who started it back up. The company I worked for provided that chat software. Sun was not happy with the performance and sent us a letter citing the GPL demanding we host, at our expense, the server for their chats and also a 10 point response plan for turning things around. They claimed that since we used Java our IP was theirs respectively and we were now unpaid employees of Sun. They did not take our revenue (although that was never off the table) but they did assign a tech writer to scream at me over the phone whenever it went down. This “product” was written by a teenager for a coding contest we did and that developer received ~100$. Those agreements you sign off on when installing Java are all about that and sooo much more. This article is about the same thing happening once again under Oracle. Be careful what you agree to- anything I do Java related anymore is OpenJDK. TL;DR here is Java is not evil in itself but the licensing around it certainly is.

Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

#174

Post by realusername »

sebazzz wrote: post #166
scarface74 wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which platform doesn’t have a C# compiler that matters?

Java cards

Java cards use a very limited version of Java, I would not put it in the same category. You can't just take your average random java code and run it on a java card.

Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

#175

Post by heelix »

bborud wrote: post #46
_lbaq wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Working in the JVM world I'm always surprised to hear that its dying, the JVM and Java moves faster forward than ever, Graal is about to go 1.0, a bunch of very interesting (very) low latency GCs are in the pipe (for example ZGC and Shenandoah) and lots of other interesting projects like Valhalla promise to keep the JVM relevant for the next 20 years. Oracle have made some moves to monetize on parts of its investment…

Reality is subjective and local. At any given time most developers will neither have much real choice when it comes to technology nor have a longer term perspective. Hence most developers will stick to what they know and what organizational inertia seems the path of least resistance. The comparison to COBOL is good for several reasons.

My first bit of production Java code was an applet that used cobra to talk with COBOL in the Java 1.0 days. When I'm bridging new languages to Java codebases, I always wonder if this is the 'new hotness' I'll be driving next.

Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

#176

Post by Luyt »

threeseed wrote: post #44
rbanffy wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The hot parts we can implement in C. There's not much overhead in crossing over to native code.

So I have to learn Python and C. With C being an incredibly difficult language to get right. So difficult that languages like Go and Rust were invented.

Have you tried Cython already? That's almost Python and much faster.

Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

#177

Post by altfredd »

acqq wrote: post #35
_lbaq wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Working in the JVM world I'm always surprised to hear that its dying, the JVM and Java moves faster forward than ever, Graal is about to go 1.0, a bunch of very interesting (very) low latency GCs are in the pipe (for example ZGC and Shenandoah) and lots of other interesting projects like Valhalla promise to keep the JVM relevant for the next 20 years. Oracle have made some moves to monetize on parts of its investment…

> Working in the JVM world I'm always surprised to hear that its dying So how is this "JVM world" escaping the grip of Oracle? E.g. graalvm is directly Oracle's, or am I missing something? Specifically, what is preventing any of the Java-related things people use now (including those that you mention) to end like the OP is describing? Asking as somebody outside of that world, but interested "how much it's worth consi…

> So how is this "JVM world" escaping the grip of Oracle?

Why would you? What is the point of "escaping"? It is like asking, "how would Go world escape the grip of Google?" — no one cares to, because nobody asks Oracle for permission to make software for JVM.

Java EE has been in maintenance mode for a long time, but Spring and Dropwizard are alive and well despite that. Incidentally, Nginx Unit has recently implemented Servlet spec — a cornerstone of JEE! — but they are stuck at it's initial version, without asynchronous Servlet support. Maybe Oracle should give Nginx a couple of decades to catch up before drafting next JEE version...

Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

#178

Post by nathanaldensr »

marak830 wrote: post #68
dtech wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The .NET ecosystem is an order of magnitude smaller than the JVM ecosystem. Up until ~3 years¹ ago C#/.NET also meant a fully Microsoft and Windows environment for all practical purposes². This is changing and Microsoft seems to be embracing open source and Linux, but it takes time for a 20 year old ecosystem to fully make the transition. ¹ The story is Steve Balmer was very anti-open source and forbade most interop…

Hmm thanks for the info, I'll admit I haven't used pretty much any ecosystem outside of windows (aside from my new jobs Mac which drives me nuts(non coding job)), but haven't had a need to install any variant of Linux. Which still leaves me a tad confused, is the anger because c# is a propriety windows tech(I'm guessing from the responses - which btw thank you to the threads I don't respond to).

The anger is a "red vs. blue" mentality. They're Java developers, they always have been, and they always will be. They still think Microsoft--the EEE Microsoft of years past--somehow relates to their (Microsoft's) development tools and platforms org. It doesn't.

Things aren't "changing," they've changed already. .NET Core is more than stable enough to run on any major platform and has been for quite some time now. C#--especially the upcoming C# 8.0 with the new nullable reference types feature--is an excellent language that can handle anything you want to throw at it.

The hate comes from ignorance, pure and simple.

Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

#179

Post by Ologn »

threeseed wrote: post #63
dtech wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Too little too late, and I highly doubt that (5-year-old) Valhalla will deliver even one of the promised features (value types) in the next 3 years. Remember that the original plan was to have all Valhalla features in Java 10. Java/JVM was in the ideal position to dominate the software world for the whole 21th century 15 years ago. Instead they did an IE6 and stagnated for so long that their competitors became plain…

Kotlin runs on JVM and needs Java to even bootstrap. And the idea that corporate developers or even frankly any developers are switching to LLVM and WebAssembly en masse is pretty ridiculous. Java as a language may be getting less developer interest but Scala, Clojure and Kotlin are as strong as ever.

Kotlin can run on the JVM and, Kotlin-on-the-JVM needs Java to even bootstrap. Also it seems that most of the interest for Kotlin comes from the JVM community and this aspect of the language. That is certainly the case for Android programmers any how. Backend JVM application server programmers use it as well.

However Kotlin can be targeted to other platforms as well. Kotlin can target JavaScript ( https://kotlinlang.org/docs/reference/js-overview.html ).

Also the Kotlin compiler has a LLVM based backend which can compile native binaries, without use of any VM ( https://kotlinlang.org/docs/reference/native-overview.html ).

My main non-JVM use of Kotlin is that when I want to use some arcane aspect of Kotlin, which I may not be too familiar with, I might write and test a small toy function on the command line using it and then copying it over to a big Android Kotlin project, as opposed to trying to work out how to use the arcane feature in the middle of a big Android project.

Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

#180

Post by nathanaldensr »

scarface74 wrote: post #118
pjmlp wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First C# needs to get into all the platforms where there is a Java compiler. And a proper story for something similar to Swing, not even considering JavaFX here. There is Xamarin, but again, the platforms with Java compilers available. And I am stating this as someone that works daily within .NET eco-system.

Which platform doesn’t have a C# compiler that matters?

The correct way to ask this is "which platform that matters doesn't have a Common Language Runtime?" The C# compiler generates Intermediate Language, not native instructions (.NET Native is an exception to this, I believe, but don't quote me on that).
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