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Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

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Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

#331

Post by IshKebab »

badpun wrote: post #164
dtech wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For me it's more a lesson about how unanimous votes, or unanimous - N can become problematic. In the EU the same is happening. Poland and Hungary have found a loophole allowing them to ignore EU rules and sanctions while still profiting from subsidies and market access. All sanctions against a member state require unanimous-1 (all states except the sanctioned member) votes and Poland is vetoing all sanctions against…

How’s that a loophole? That’s literally how unanimous works, if EU wanted to be ruled by majority, they should have decided on that instead.

That's the point - unanimous voting is open to abuse from tiny minorities.

Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

#332

Post by bborud »

tatersolid wrote: post #85
threeseed wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Strange attitude to take when you can just target OpenJDK and then it is completely irrelevant what Oracle does or does not do. The fact is that every single one of the largest companies has some Java or Scala code within their core platform. And none of them have ever raised Oracle as a risk.

The most valuable corporation in the world as of this date uses zero Java for anything “core”. Anecdotally, nearly every CIO/CTO I’ve encountered in the last few sees Oracle as a huge risk. Most particularly with regards to databases, which are even sticker than applications which have shorter life cycles.

Very few developers have access to the decision making process (or risk management imperatives)of executives of large organizations (and vice versa). When big numbers are involved the actual story and what gets told to the public are often entirely different things. This is why the “but we have OpenJDK” argument is practically a non-sequitur, yet seems a valid argument to many.

Oracle is, as you say, on the radar primarily because of databases. But it is really the risk of dealing with a company that is likely to screw you if they can do so with sufficient ROI (where the investment is audits and litigation)

Developers and CxOs/company boards risk very different things and when things go bad, have very different downsides.

Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

#333

Post by cobalt »

djvu9 wrote: post #313
jayd16 wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can see you're a Go fan but I think .NETcore has potential to start eating away at Java in a big way if Microsoft continues on its current path. They can actually provide the enterprise level support big corps want.

.NET's developer community is in no place comparable Golang's or Javascript's. Just take a look at GitHub's trending page by programming languages. Javascript is really bad for server side applications, and yet here we are with so many nodejs server apps. It doesn't matter much how good a tech is. What matters more is what the new generation is using, which you can get a sense from the trending page on GitHub.

Lol, go has nowhere near the mind/marketshare of .net

Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

#334

Post by avierax »

needusername wrote: post #213

To me this seems like a play against OpenJ9 which is at least partially based on OpenJDK. Rumor has it that AdoptOpenJDK lost their TCK license because they also published OpenJ9 builds. I'm a bit surprised by this given that IBM is a long time license holder and I can remember JavaOne keynotes where Oracle celebrated IBM "joining" OpenJDK.

Where can I read more about AdoptOpenJDK losing its TCK license? Is there any post? Any leak from their team?

Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

#335

Post by james-mcelwain »

djvu9 wrote: post #195
_lbaq wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Working in the JVM world I'm always surprised to hear that its dying, the JVM and Java moves faster forward than ever, Graal is about to go 1.0, a bunch of very interesting (very) low latency GCs are in the pipe (for example ZGC and Shenandoah) and lots of other interesting projects like Valhalla promise to keep the JVM relevant for the next 20 years. Oracle have made some moves to monetize on parts of its investment…

Java the language is slightly different than JVM but nevertheless the future is not very bright IMO. So far there are a few areas Java/JVM still holds a strong position but if you take a look at GitHub trending there is little or now new blood coming in. - Android. No serious competitor to Java yet (JVM is irrelevant). But the Google lawsuit could have some complication. - Spring stuff. I won't be surprised if they w…

Spring is really nice, but all the flexibility comes at a cost. Annotation meta-programming, runtime reflection, constructing proxies, classpath scanning... all contribute to a perception of slow JVM startup times that makes something like Spring Boot unsuitable for really small services or utilities.

I know there are other Java frameworks out there that are more optimized for smaller modular projects, but there's also the cost of operationalizing the JVM in something like Docker. Fat JAR deployments are relatively simple, but tuning the JVM isn't always straightforward. I'm definitely jealous of the simplicity of producing a single binary as your deployment artifact.

Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

#336

Post by arunc »

bborud wrote: post #41

Oracle makes Java a risk factor in all projects. I stopped approving new Java projects in my team 2 years ago after we switched to Go. This wasn’t a decision we took lightly and it took almost a decade for me to be comfortable with leaving Java behind. But it is the right thing to do. Oracle is not trustworthy.

Just curious, what makes you think Google trustworthy (in relation to Go)? It is not surprising that corporates control and drive the languages and ecosystems in their own favor. IMO, Rust and D are truly open source, even though D lacks the corporate sponsor like any other major language.

Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

#337

Post by pojzon »

rpeden wrote: post #188
dtech wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You could have said the same about Cobol in the '90s

You could say something similar about Cobol now . Except replace 25 years with 60 years. Lots of people on HN would probably be shocked at how many Cobol apps are still up and running and actively maintained.

Like half of world bank systems are running on Cobol. No way its going out any time soon.

And i dont see a problem if ots working and there are people willing to maintain it if needed.

Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

#338

Post by orangecat »

threeseed wrote: post #51
bborud wrote: post #41

Oracle makes Java a risk factor in all projects. I stopped approving new Java projects in my team 2 years ago after we switched to Go. This wasn’t a decision we took lightly and it took almost a decade for me to be comfortable with leaving Java behind. But it is the right thing to do. Oracle is not trustworthy.

Strange attitude to take when you can just target OpenJDK and then it is completely irrelevant what Oracle does or does not do. The fact is that every single one of the largest companies has some Java or Scala code within their core platform. And none of them have ever raised Oracle as a risk.

you can just target OpenJDK and then it is completely irrelevant what Oracle does or does not do

If Oracle's copyright argument holds up, then they can kill or cripple OpenJDK at will by denying it the ability to implement new Java APIs.

Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

#339

Post by Rattled »

pron wrote: post #219
vfc1 wrote: post #23

The Java ecosystem has been slowly dying for years, it's already the new Cobol at this stage. I have the impression that a lot of the mindshare has switched to the Node and Javascript ecosystem, especially the frontend devs, via the Typescript / Angular path, which is a natural path to Java developers due to the comfort given by familiar concepts like static types, classes, etc. When I used to do Java, I always found…

> The Java ecosystem has been slowly dying for years, it's already the new Cobol at this stage. This has been said for at least the last ten years. Not only is Java not dying, but companies like Apple and Facebook (not to mention Netflix, Amazon and Google, that are mostly or largely Java already) are increasing their investment in the platform. This was not the case when COBOL was 25. The reason this is so is that J…

> Oracle has just open sourced the entire JDK.

Last time I had to download a JDK I got a warning about having to pay a license for commercial use. I think most enterprises care more about the licensing arrangement than access to the source.

Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

#340

Post by miskin »

wolfspider wrote: post #172
inapis wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That fully Microsoft and windows stack has had ripple effects. At least from my perspective in South Asia. First the price was a deal breaker. Second, people who started with C# quickly found their only employment opportunities to be at large companies. Those who started with Java/Node/Ruby had a much wider array to choose from. Third, when people jumped to start their own companies, Java/Node/Ruby/Python/Go won by a…

Funny you should say that because it was Sun Microsystems itself which caused me to switch to C#. Starting out in my career I worked for serial entrepreneurs exclusively to learn from them and one such company used Sun Java for their main product. Hello there! Every time the Java development chatroom crashed for a couple years or so it was me who started it back up. The company I worked for provided that chat softwar…

This sounds very unlikely. So SUN Microsystems claimed that you should run service for them because of GPL that had classpath exception? Even without that exception that is not how GPL works.
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