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Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

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Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

#21
post #17
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is not Python.

It's real-world Python. Why do you think stuff like SciPy are so popular?

Surely not because they are written in real world Python.

Rather real world Fortran, C and C++ with Python glue code.

Just like Tcl, Ruby or whatever scripting language with the same glue code would get out of it.

Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

#22
post #2

Well, mmm, good riddance? I suppose this will cause a lot of hardships to a lot of people who need to maintain JavaEE, but the fact that Java EE is no more is nothing but good. It is a nightmare case of overengineering.

Time to switch to C#. Funny how it took Oracle to do what C# originally intended to do: kill Java.

First C# needs to get into all the platforms where there is a Java compiler.

And a proper story for something similar to Swing, not even considering JavaFX here. There is Xamarin, but again, the platforms with Java compilers available.

And I am stating this as someone that works daily within .NET eco-system.

Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

#23
The Java ecosystem has been slowly dying for years, it's already the new Cobol at this stage.

I have the impression that a lot of the mindshare has switched to the Node and Javascript ecosystem, especially the frontend devs, via the Typescript / Angular path, which is a natural path to Java developers due to the comfort given by familiar concepts like static types, classes, etc.

When I used to do Java, I always found that Spring was a much better framework than Java EE, and have used it in most projects I've worked.

Oracle did not take a note from the Microsoft book and is really behaving that an evil corporate overlord.

It's clear at this stage that they bought Sun in order to slowly turn Java proprietary, and charge billions to the companies that are now fully Java-based for the next few decades.

I'm glad I saw the writing on the wall and switched, but the problem is that Java is still being taught a lot at schools, and school programs especially universities are hard to adapt and only change every 4-5 years or so.

Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

#24
post #9

(Not an expert on all the Java nomenclature / standards / politics) What does Eclipse foundation have to do with Java EE? Does this news sabotage their use of OpenJ9 somehow?

After Java SE has become proprietary-like software, it was reported that Java EE division would be handed to the Eclipse Foundation. And that was good news because it meant that Java EE would be managed independently from Oracle but now we see that Oracle wants to make Java EE dependent on themselves, and that is bad news :::

Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

#25
post #2

Well, mmm, good riddance? I suppose this will cause a lot of hardships to a lot of people who need to maintain JavaEE, but the fact that Java EE is no more is nothing but good. It is a nightmare case of overengineering.

Time to switch to C#. Funny how it took Oracle to do what C# originally intended to do: kill Java.

hand up uh not as experienced as most people on HN, what's the hate for c#? I went from vb6 to VB.net then c# and while I fully admit I'm a casual coder, i haven't had an issue (with what I do, which is voice to string primarily) so far. Is there something better for this I perhaps should look into?

Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

#26
post #2

Well, mmm, good riddance? I suppose this will cause a lot of hardships to a lot of people who need to maintain JavaEE, but the fact that Java EE is no more is nothing but good. It is a nightmare case of overengineering.

Time to switch to C#. Funny how it took Oracle to do what C# originally intended to do: kill Java.

I switched to C# late last year. Oracle is just too much baggage to have hanging around when thinking about your career / future for me. Really didn't like the direction they are taking things when they announced their new release train and licencing model. Compared to that Microsoft have done an about face in recent years with a commitment to open source and first-class support for Linux and revamping their core offering with .NET Core. It's been a mostly smooth transition.

Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

#27
post #14
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good luck with the performance over there.

The hot parts we can implement in C. There's not much overhead in crossing over to native code.

Lovely theory, but in practice it works more like this:

1) write everything in python because its easy and quick to do so.

2) its slow as.

3) abandon software and write it in something else, or, live on with slow ass software and blame python for being slow and rubbish forever more.

re-writing python in c is a hideously painful process, and its proven to be very unsuccessful practically.

Writing new code in c/c++/whatever and exposing a python api is where successful projects like numpy and tensorflow live.

python is very good at what it is, but no one is ever going to go and rewrite your python code in c to make it faster; its just going to be slow forever.

Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

#28
> the worst case possible, as it not only voids the “WORA” (Write Once Run Anywhere) principle, it simply won’t happen in reality: After 18 months virtually no application vendor really wants to spend the time and money to update all customers with recompiled versions just for the sake of a renamed platform with a dubios future.

WORA was never perfect, I would be surprised if there was even a single JRE release that didn't note a breaking change in its release notes. So vendors should have a process to update their releases just for that already in place.

> The future is unclear because Oracle already started a blocking politics at the Eclipse Foundation’s board, where Oracle has a seat, and where unanimous decisions are needed.

They have no rules to out board members acting in bad faith?

Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

#29
post #23

The Java ecosystem has been slowly dying for years, it's already the new Cobol at this stage. I have the impression that a lot of the mindshare has switched to the Node and Javascript ecosystem, especially the frontend devs, via the Typescript / Angular path, which is a natural path to Java developers due to the comfort given by familiar concepts like static types, classes, etc. When I used to do Java, I always found…

Working in the JVM world I'm always surprised to hear that its dying, the JVM and Java moves faster forward than ever, Graal is about to go 1.0, a bunch of very interesting (very) low latency GCs are in the pipe (for example ZGC and Shenandoah) and lots of other interesting projects like Valhalla promise to keep the JVM relevant for the next 20 years. Oracle have made some moves to monetize on parts of its investment, but the situation is largely misrepresented.

Ref:

- https://openjdk.java.net/projects/valhalla/

- https://www.graalvm.org

- https://wiki.openjdk.java.net/display/zgc/Main

- https://wiki.openjdk.java.net/display/shenandoah/Main

Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

#30
how hard will it be to work out a script, that update the namespace automatically? it would even be possible to do that in the bytecode level I think.

I think Eclipse Foundation is f*cked, not by Oracle but its bureaucracy, and inability to reinvent itself.

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