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Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

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Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

#211

Post by rbanffy »

DonHopkins wrote: post #133
rbanffy wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's, sadly, true. At the time of acquisition, Sun was only a shadow of its former glory...

It all started circling the drain when they merged SunOS with System V. Solaris: So bad I left the company.

They still did a ton of cool stuff after that. It was under Jonathan Schwartz that the lack of direction and the overwhelming confusion became painfully obvious, not knowing whether it was a software company trying to profit from and compete against free (as in beer) software, a hardware company narrowing its own niche at the very top or... something totally different.

I kept a couple Type 7 keyboards.

Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

#212

Post by scarface74 »

sigzero wrote: post #208
scarface74 wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Java doesn’t come standard on Windows, MacOS, or iOS. It’s also not standard on Windows based EC2 instances. But even if it does come “standard” on Linux. How many people actually count on the installed instances of runtimes and don’t install their own tested versions? For instance, Python 2.7 comes on a Windows EC2 AWS instance.

For you what you use Java for it doesn't need to come "standard". I am not sure why Python is mentioned but it isn't close to a replacement.

The parent post said “and comes standard on every OS and every cloud instance”. That is not true.

I brought up Python as an example of a language that does come “standard” on “cloud instances”(and MacOS) but it’s an older version. Most people wouldn’t count on the bundled version of either.

Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

#213

Post by needusername »

To me this seems like a play against OpenJ9 which is at least partially based on OpenJDK. Rumor has it that AdoptOpenJDK lost their TCK license because they also published OpenJ9 builds.

I'm a bit surprised by this given that IBM is a long time license holder and I can remember JavaOne keynotes where Oracle celebrated IBM "joining" OpenJDK.

Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

#214

Post by stickfigure »

djvu9 wrote: post #195
_lbaq wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Working in the JVM world I'm always surprised to hear that its dying, the JVM and Java moves faster forward than ever, Graal is about to go 1.0, a bunch of very interesting (very) low latency GCs are in the pipe (for example ZGC and Shenandoah) and lots of other interesting projects like Valhalla promise to keep the JVM relevant for the next 20 years. Oracle have made some moves to monetize on parts of its investment…

Java the language is slightly different than JVM but nevertheless the future is not very bright IMO. So far there are a few areas Java/JVM still holds a strong position but if you take a look at GitHub trending there is little or now new blood coming in. - Android. No serious competitor to Java yet (JVM is irrelevant). But the Google lawsuit could have some complication. - Spring stuff. I won't be surprised if they w…

Golang, at least in its current incarnation, has no chance of replacing Java in its core use case - business processing. Golang is replacing infrastructure that used to be written in C, which makes sense considering that's what it was designed for.

It's weird that you put Spring and react/angular/vue in the same sentence, because there is no overlap in these problem domains.

Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

#215

Post by tootie »

vfc1 wrote: post #23

The Java ecosystem has been slowly dying for years, it's already the new Cobol at this stage. I have the impression that a lot of the mindshare has switched to the Node and Javascript ecosystem, especially the frontend devs, via the Typescript / Angular path, which is a natural path to Java developers due to the comfort given by familiar concepts like static types, classes, etc. When I used to do Java, I always found…

JavaScript is practically stone age compared to Java. Debugging is a nightmare. Documentation is a nightmare. Scaling is a nightmare. NPM is a thousand monkeys at a thousand typewriters.

Java suffers from having some 20-year old codebases because it's been so popular for so long but I can open up a 2004 WebLogic project in Eclipse or InteeliJ and trace everything it's doing. And modern Java has added all the nice features we expect a modern language to have. Java's slow demise is due to terrible PR and Oracle's endless insistence on JEE when every sane developer is using Spring.

Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

#216

Post by stephenhuey »

StevePerkins wrote: post #143
aphexairlines wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're right that Java is entrenched in a lot of the enterprise space, but I think you're being quick to dismiss entrants that have gained steam in the last few years. For example, Go is becoming the default in Kubernetes applications. It's eating tech companies that became large in the last few years like Lyft and Uber. It'll spread to other large tech companies like Amazon or IBM with ease. It will possibly get pic…

Seriously, people. K8s is a container orchestration system. Yes, it's written in Go, like Docker itself. DevOps tooling is a niche area where Go has been very successful. But k8s runs whatever you put into your Docker containers. I've seen no indication of it changing which languages people choose to containerize (Node containers probably being way more common than Go ones). If anything, easy containerization negates…

Exactly! In the enterprise world, there is a lot of Java and .NET code that isn’t going away for a while especially since K8s makes it easier to port to the cloud. In my enterprise, the only other language that comes close in usage numbers is Python, so I think a lot of enterprise folks will opt for that over Go.

Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

#217

Post by BoyRobot777 »

scarface74 wrote: post #200
coldtea wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Because development that happened in 1994 is really relevant today. 1994? We still depend on tons of features, infrastructure, and techniques developed in the 60s and 70s. Heck, most of what the JS world considers "state of the art" was already available in 70s languages. As for the snark, first, the innovations the parents refers to is not "JavaBeans, Java Server Pages, and Java Server Faces", but stuff like rock-…

The contention was that other languages had a “lot to catch up” with Java because it’s been around for 25 years. So how haven’t other statically typed languages “caught up”? In fact, Java is so far behind C# with true Generics, LINQ - not the syntax the entire linq expressions -> expression trees -> runtime providers that can parse the trees and translate it to a destination syntax, etc. it’s laughable. Can anyone sa…

Here we go again with "true Generics". Type erasure makes interop easy (for an almost insignificant cost), including with Java prior to generics. But that's also what makes different languages on the Java platform interop so well (contrast with the CLR, where this is not the case; they've baked variance into the runtime and are paying a high price for that decision). If Java had baked their type system into JVM, Scala, Kotlin, Groovy would have to dance around that. Haskell, for example, erases all types, not just type parameters (well, sort of; it does reify the constructor tag/discriminator, which corresponds to type information in Java), and people get fancy with types in Scala, too. The only real annoyance erasure brings is that you cannot overload a method with another that erases to the same type.

All in all, The JVM is leading not only CLR on all fronts, but pretty much any other runtime. C# compilers and GCs are at least a decade behind Java's. You may argue on how important those things are compared to other tradeoffs, but those are the areas where Java was designed to compete at, and those are the areas where it is leading by a wide margin.

Edit: when Java was first introduced, its original designers stated their intention to construct a conservative, low-innovation frontend language, and a high-innovation runtime. In many respects, .NET has the opposite design. You may prefer one or the other and that's OK, but it makes comparing the two on any single aspect very problematic. Of course Java won't keep up on language innovation compared to .NET, and of course .NET won't keep up with Java on runtime innovation -- they each choose to get their competitive advantage in different aspects.

Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

#218

Post by jayd16 »

djvu9 wrote: post #195
_lbaq wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Working in the JVM world I'm always surprised to hear that its dying, the JVM and Java moves faster forward than ever, Graal is about to go 1.0, a bunch of very interesting (very) low latency GCs are in the pipe (for example ZGC and Shenandoah) and lots of other interesting projects like Valhalla promise to keep the JVM relevant for the next 20 years. Oracle have made some moves to monetize on parts of its investment…

Java the language is slightly different than JVM but nevertheless the future is not very bright IMO. So far there are a few areas Java/JVM still holds a strong position but if you take a look at GitHub trending there is little or now new blood coming in. - Android. No serious competitor to Java yet (JVM is irrelevant). But the Google lawsuit could have some complication. - Spring stuff. I won't be surprised if they w…

I can see you're a Go fan but I think .NETcore has potential to start eating away at Java in a big way if Microsoft continues on its current path. They can actually provide the enterprise level support big corps want.

Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

#219

Post by pron »

vfc1 wrote: post #23

The Java ecosystem has been slowly dying for years, it's already the new Cobol at this stage. I have the impression that a lot of the mindshare has switched to the Node and Javascript ecosystem, especially the frontend devs, via the Typescript / Angular path, which is a natural path to Java developers due to the comfort given by familiar concepts like static types, classes, etc. When I used to do Java, I always found…

> The Java ecosystem has been slowly dying for years, it's already the new Cobol at this stage.

This has been said for at least the last ten years. Not only is Java not dying, but companies like Apple and Facebook (not to mention Netflix, Amazon and Google, that are mostly or largely Java already) are increasing their investment in the platform. This was not the case when COBOL was 25.

The reason this is so is that Java is by far the most technologically advanced server-side platform in existence. It continuously presents technological breakthroughs in GC, compilation, and low-overhead profiling technology (just in the past few years it did so again in all three -- with ZGC, Graal and JFR). Node, Python, Go, Erlang -- none of them even come close. .NET comes closest, but even it is pretty far behind. This certainly wasn't the case when COBOL was 25.

It is true that for a short period of time, somewhere between 2002 and 2005, Java was more dominant than it is today, but that was a fluke. More "scripty" runtimes and languages were usually more successful in the "smallish software" domain. In 1995-2002 that was VB (and others); now it's Python. Also, there has been some decline in all languages due to the ubiquity of JavaScript on the browser, but Java did not suffer more than others. Maybe less so.

> Oracle did not take a note from the Microsoft book and is really behaving that an evil corporate overlord.

Oracle has just open sourced the entire JDK. Sun didn't do that and even .NET isn't entirely open source. I have no knowledge or involvement with EE, but it seems Oracle simply doesn't have faith in EE, and doesn't want the Java trademark associated with it.

(I work at Oracle on the JDK -- i.e. OpenJDK -- but speak only for myself)

Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

#220

Post by tcptomato »

ccozan wrote: post #165
eatonphil wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Had to validate the Netherlands claim out of curiosity. The claim is popular but even Romanian officials have stated this is not true [0]. [0] http://business-review.eu/news/pm-ciolos-future-of-constanta...

Mind you, not officially! However, the endemic corruption could be the real reason.

And you want the Romanian government to admit that? Of course it's the Dutch who are jealous of a port which couldn't we worse located/s
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