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Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

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Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

#191

Post by coldtea »

vfc1 wrote: post #23

The Java ecosystem has been slowly dying for years, it's already the new Cobol at this stage. I have the impression that a lot of the mindshare has switched to the Node and Javascript ecosystem, especially the frontend devs, via the Typescript / Angular path, which is a natural path to Java developers due to the comfort given by familiar concepts like static types, classes, etc. When I used to do Java, I always found…

>The Java ecosystem has been slowly dying for years, it's already the new Cobol at this stage.

Not in any industry I know.

Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

#192

Post by coldtea »

dtech wrote: post #52
_lbaq wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Working in the JVM world I'm always surprised to hear that its dying, the JVM and Java moves faster forward than ever, Graal is about to go 1.0, a bunch of very interesting (very) low latency GCs are in the pipe (for example ZGC and Shenandoah) and lots of other interesting projects like Valhalla promise to keep the JVM relevant for the next 20 years. Oracle have made some moves to monetize on parts of its investment…

Too little too late, and I highly doubt that (5-year-old) Valhalla will deliver even one of the promised features (value types) in the next 3 years. Remember that the original plan was to have all Valhalla features in Java 10. Java/JVM was in the ideal position to dominate the software world for the whole 21th century 15 years ago. Instead they did an IE6 and stagnated for so long that their competitors became plain…

>webassembly are eating JVM's cake

Nobody seriously uses webassembly outside of the web broswer.

So much for hyperbole.

Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

#193

Post by coldtea »

dtech wrote: post #140
StevePerkins wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> webassembly [is] eating JVM's cake It's hard for me to take all the "Java is dying" threads seriously when they don't even seem to understand where Java plays. Webassembly ? Really? That's a client-side tech, and 99.999% of Java devs ceded the browser battleground pre-9/11. Java's bread and butter is EAI, ETL, and server-side business application development. Particularly with pieces requiring heavily distributed d…

I said LLVM and webassembly. LLVM has replaced JVM as a programming language target bytecode in the last 10 years (except Kotlin no new JVM language). JVM has lost web to JS 20-15 years ago, and Webassembly is now taking shape as proper web bytecode. I do not know what will be the most dominant language + bytecode in 25 years, but I would bet $10000 that it isn't Java and JVM.

>LLVM has replaced JVM as a programming language target bytecode in the last 10 years (except Kotlin no new JVM language)

LLVM only emerged as a major target in the "last 10 years", so there's that.

And JVM already had so many major languages it didn't really have much space for others (Scala, Clojure, Groovy, and so on, including fully working clones of Ruby and Python).

Still, 4 major new languages: Scala, Clojure, Groovy, Kotlin -- all in the TIOBE top 50, from a single platform (which wasn't designed to be a language neutral target in the first place, it just happened because of it being too successful), plus the number one TIOBE index spot (Java), sounds like enough.

Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

#194

Post by coldtea »

scarface74 wrote: post #126
pjmlp wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And all of them have a lot of work to catch up with 25 years of market experience.

Because development that happened in 1994 is really relevant today. How will these languages ever catch up with innovations like JavaBeans, Java Server Pages, and Java Server Faces?

>Because development that happened in 1994 is really relevant today.

1994? We still depend on tons of features, infrastructure, and techniques developed in the 60s and 70s.

Heck, most of what the JS world considers "state of the art" was already available in 70s languages.

As for the snark, first, the innovations the parents refers to is not "JavaBeans, Java Server Pages, and Java Server Faces", but stuff like rock-solid GCs, tooling, and so on.

And even techniques on the level of "JavaBeans, Java Server Pages, and Java Server Faces" are only going to be resold to several other languages. The JS worlds keeps on piling Java (or older) techniques and syntax.

Heck, they just re-invented the "private instance variables" (with an ugly hash syntax) on their latest efforts...

Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

#195

Post by djvu9 »

_lbaq wrote: post #29
vfc1 wrote: post #23

The Java ecosystem has been slowly dying for years, it's already the new Cobol at this stage. I have the impression that a lot of the mindshare has switched to the Node and Javascript ecosystem, especially the frontend devs, via the Typescript / Angular path, which is a natural path to Java developers due to the comfort given by familiar concepts like static types, classes, etc. When I used to do Java, I always found…

Working in the JVM world I'm always surprised to hear that its dying, the JVM and Java moves faster forward than ever, Graal is about to go 1.0, a bunch of very interesting (very) low latency GCs are in the pipe (for example ZGC and Shenandoah) and lots of other interesting projects like Valhalla promise to keep the JVM relevant for the next 20 years. Oracle have made some moves to monetize on parts of its investment…

Java the language is slightly different than JVM but nevertheless the future is not very bright IMO. So far there are a few areas Java/JVM still holds a strong position but if you take a look at GitHub trending there is little or now new blood coming in.

- Android. No serious competitor to Java yet (JVM is irrelevant). But the Google lawsuit could have some complication.

- Spring stuff. I won't be surprised if they will be replaced by golang and nodejs (along with react/angular/vue etc). Same path for RoR.

- Data processing: Spark stuff, PrestoDB, Flink, Kafka, Hive, HBase, Lucene/Elastic etc. Java/JVM is still dominant but golang could be a future contender. A few new application databases/KV stores are implemented in golang.

The problem for Java is that the last category is mostly services (instead of libraries/frameworks) so you can potentially use any language to work with them, and the industry probably won't create many jobs for building generic services especially in the cloud era. So having the dominance doesn't provide a lot of protection.

Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

#196

Post by coldtea »

dtech wrote: post #137
pjmlp wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And all of them have a lot of work to catch up with 25 years of market experience.

You could have said the same about Cobol in the '90s

You seem to think Cobol is somehow superseded now. In fact it runs more critical infrastructure, and even sees more lines per year added for those kinds of systems, that JS does.

Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

#197

Post by coldtea »

dtech wrote: post #69
_lbaq wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Kotlin is a JVM language, sold as a better Java, and the JVM is really the thing that is the echo system gathers around, not necessarily the language Java. Other interesting languages you have on the JVM is Scala (multi-paradigm), Clojure (Lisp), EtaLang (Haskell) - https://eta-lang.org - https://www.scala-lang.org - https://kotlinlang.org - https://clojure.org

Notice how I separately addressed JVM and Java. Java is already losing market share to JVM competitor languages. JVM is in a stronger position than Java, but imagine a world were 15-10 years ago native compilation for JVM bytecode became available instead of 1 year ago. LLVM wouldn't have stood a chance. Kotlin and Scala (I'm not too familiar with Clojure and others) are hedging their bets and making JS/Webassembly a…

>Java is already losing market share to JVM competitor languages.

Really, any examples? And not Go and Rust (down 30+ places in the TIOBE index compared to Java, and as insignificant as to not even exist in the global job market).

Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

#198

Post by dtech »

repolfx wrote: post #154
dtech wrote: post #78

> And the idea that corporate developers or even frankly any developers are switching to LLVM and WebAssembly en masse is pretty ridiculous. There is only 1 popular language released since 2009 that targets JVM: Kotlin. All other target JS, their own bytecode or LLVM: Go, Rust, Dart, Elixer, Julia, Typescript, Swift. This is a significant difference from 2003-2009 languages which all targeted JVM unless they were Mic…

And who uses Dart? Elixir? Julia? Hardly anyone. Lots of attempts but also lots of failures, sometimes due to poor runtimes or libraries. Swift is iOS/Apple specific, at least in usage. But mobile is dominated by Android, which is moving towards Kotlin. So Kotlin is already huge right there, much larger than Dart or Elixir and probably larger than Swift, soon if not already. Meanwhile Go would probably benefit from t…

A lot of new languages fail. It's still a good measure of where things will be 10-20 years later.

Look at new languages of 1990-2000: Haskell, Python, VB, Lua, R, Ruby, Java, Delphi, JS, PHP, Rebol. 4/11 are mostly irrelevant now. 4/11 are important niche languages. 3/11: Python, Java, and JS are dominant players.

1990-2000 might be special because of a massive shift toward IT systems in general, but it might not be and be an indication of languages lifecycle.

Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

#199

Post by blattimwind »

sheeshkebab wrote: post #167

If I understand correctly, OpenJDK is licensed under GPL with classpath exception - and the only thing that is preventing openjdk from being unusable in any commercial settings is a few lines of legalese, controlled by Oracle, on handful of source files in various packages. If Oracle removes that classpath exception legalese in some upcoming jdk version from these source files (which they are fully in control of), op…

> Am I mistaken about any of this?

You can't revoke a GPL license unless the licensee violated the GPL. Additionally, the GPL has this nifty "Automatic Licensing of Downstream Recipients" clause. In other words, if you put some code out there under the GPL, there is no way for you to un-GPL that particular code. Even if you bring out a new version of it that isn't GPL any more, the old version still is. (This is quite important to make copyleft work)

Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

#200

Post by scarface74 »

coldtea wrote: post #194
scarface74 wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because development that happened in 1994 is really relevant today. How will these languages ever catch up with innovations like JavaBeans, Java Server Pages, and Java Server Faces?

> Because development that happened in 1994 is really relevant today. 1994? We still depend on tons of features, infrastructure, and techniques developed in the 60s and 70s. Heck, most of what the JS world considers "state of the art" was already available in 70s languages. As for the snark, first, the innovations the parents refers to is not "JavaBeans, Java Server Pages, and Java Server Faces", but stuff like rock-…

The contention was that other languages had a “lot to catch up” with Java because it’s been around for 25 years. So how haven’t other statically typed languages “caught up”?

In fact, Java is so far behind C# with true Generics, LINQ - not the syntax the entire linq expressions -> expression trees -> runtime providers that can parse the trees and translate it to a destination syntax, etc. it’s laughable. Can anyone say honestly that Oracle has been a good steward over Java or that it has improved as fast as any modern popular language?

And the “tooling” around Java is the main reason that when I had a choice between C# and Java in the mid 2000s, I chose C#. Heck, the Visual Studio 97 was better than most Java tooling is today.

Yeah I played around with the early VB like Java IDEs like JBuildsr. Java’s IDE’s have never been strong points. Neither have the XML is king mindset.

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