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Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

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Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

#121

Post by scarface74 »

pjmlp wrote: post #99
nbevans wrote: post #12

.NET Core will welcome this round of Java orphans with open arms.

First it needs to sort out its history of not being compatible with all .NET Framework libraries.

The world is moving on from .Net Framework - including Microsoft. .Net Framework is definitely the new COBOL. It’s basically in maintenance mode. Any company would be crazy to start a new greenfield project using .Net Framework and should have some type of plan to move to Core.

https://visualstudiomagazine.com/articles/2018/10/10/net-key...

The presenters said it will still be released with Windows, as it's a component of Windows itself, so it will be supported for the lifetime of Windows. Microsoft is just going to be making highly compatible targeted improvements to .NET Framework after version 4.

So you shouldn't feel pressured to move off .NET Framework, but just know that it's going to be much more highly targeted compatible fixes kind of going forward and we recommend that all new development that you start on .NET is on .NET Core if possible

Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

#122

Post by marak830 »

marak830 wrote: post #25
DonHopkins wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Time to switch to C#. Funny how it took Oracle to do what C# originally intended to do: kill Java.

hand up uh not as experienced as most people on HN, what's the hate for c#? I went from vb6 to VB.net then c# and while I fully admit I'm a casual coder, i haven't had an issue (with what I do, which is voice to string primarily) so far. Is there something better for this I perhaps should look into?

To the downvoters. Really? I'm literally asking why here, while my karma is really a non issue, I'm wondering why you would down vote an honest question. (Thanks again to the people who gave me informative posts, I have some things to research, just need to find the time!)

Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

#123

Post by rtempaccount1 »

pjmlp wrote: post #96
tatersolid wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The most valuable corporation in the world as of this date uses zero Java for anything “core”. Anecdotally, nearly every CIO/CTO I’ve encountered in the last few sees Oracle as a huge risk. Most particularly with regards to databases, which are even sticker than applications which have shorter life cycles.

You mean the servers Apple has running on WebObjects, JEE and Clojure for iTunes, Apple Maps and their iCloud?

I'm guessing the use of "as of this date" means that the parent comment is referring to Microsoft and not Apple, as at the moment by market cap, Microsoft is more valuable than apple by about $13billion

Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

#124

Post by DonHopkins »

masklinn wrote: post #19
DonHopkins wrote: post #4

>But once Eclipse products would be not vendor-neutral anymore, the EF’s tax exemption might become void, which would mean a financial fiasco, or possibly mean the end of the organization as a hole. I think the problem is Oracle's a-hole, in this situation.

Do not anthropomorphise the lawnmower.

Point taken. But also:

Do not work for, do business with, depend on, or attempt to negotiate with the lawnmower, either!

Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

#125

Post by josefx »

acqq wrote: post #62
_lbaq wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Graal Community Edition is licensed under GPL, there is a Enterprise Edition that has additional features that is licensed differently. OpenJDK does not need commercial licensing, but Oracle JDK which is built from OpenJDK needs. Then there are plenty of other vendors to chose from if you absolutely does not want to interact with Oracle. IBM and now Eclipse foundation OpenJ9 is a very interesting TCK compliant JVM, t…

GPL is not usable for any small company which doesn't want to publish its own sources. What can be used only using BSD, MIT, Apache licenses? And what from the GPL-licensed products is safe to use to produce and sell own closed source products (e.g. where the exception to GPL exists for just linking the libraries or similar)? Edit1: Long term dangers/costs of depending on the technologies that need commercial license…

As far as I can tell the GPL in the Graal source repo includes a classpath exception. So the license wont affect a program distributed with it.

Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

#126

Post by scarface74 »

pjmlp wrote: post #89
dtech wrote: post #78

> And the idea that corporate developers or even frankly any developers are switching to LLVM and WebAssembly en masse is pretty ridiculous. There is only 1 popular language released since 2009 that targets JVM: Kotlin. All other target JS, their own bytecode or LLVM: Go, Rust, Dart, Elixer, Julia, Typescript, Swift. This is a significant difference from 2003-2009 languages which all targeted JVM unless they were Mic…

And all of them have a lot of work to catch up with 25 years of market experience.

Because development that happened in 1994 is really relevant today.

How will these languages ever catch up with innovations like JavaBeans, Java Server Pages, and Java Server Faces?

Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

#127

Post by empthought »

evgen wrote: post #83
fmhul wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Reddit disagrees. And they weren't using 3, which is even slower.

By using Python they were able to ship, which is why you have heard of Reddit and they were able to grow enough to have a concurrency problem (something Python still sucks at); the number of sites of any significance that started by using Java for page delivery is probably somewhere around 0.

Oh cmon, LinkedIn started with Java.

Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

#128

Post by roca »

vfc1 wrote: post #23

The Java ecosystem has been slowly dying for years, it's already the new Cobol at this stage. I have the impression that a lot of the mindshare has switched to the Node and Javascript ecosystem, especially the frontend devs, via the Typescript / Angular path, which is a natural path to Java developers due to the comfort given by familiar concepts like static types, classes, etc. When I used to do Java, I always found…

Nothing wrong with being the new COBOL. We need a new COBOL is Java is pretty good for that.

At least it would be if Oracle wasn't trying to squeeze it dry.

Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

#129

Post by HelloNurse »

evgen wrote: post #70
shadowmint wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lovely theory, but in practice it works more like this: 1) write everything in python because its easy and quick to do so. 2) its slow as. 3) abandon software and write it in something else, or, live on with slow ass software and blame python for being slow and rubbish forever more. re-writing python in c is a hideously painful process, and its proven to be very unsuccessful practically. Writing new code in c/c++/wha…

No, in practice is works something like this: 1) write everything in python 2) yeah, the performance here is good enough so ship it 3) there is no 3 There are very few situations where performance is going to be an issue for you where there is not an existing C module solution that will solve the problem for you. The tired old 'python is slow' trope is getting more and more irrelevant every day. There are other aspec…

I'd emphasize that for each tasks that's likely to be a performance bottleneck there are, usually, existing high performance extensions: someone has had the same needs before you.

If there are performance issues, rewriting part of a Python application in C is much less likely than refactoring it, without using other languages, to use an existing high performance library.

Application-specific Python extensions are usually intended to allow scripting of the application, with little concern for Python performance (which is the same as doing the same thing without scripting).

New foreign language Python extensions are usually found in new Python libraries, to make existing proven C or C++ libraries available to Python applications or to improve on existing Python libraries.

Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

#130

Post by realusername »

bradleyjg wrote: post #93
realusername wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would not go as far to say it's dying but it's heavily slowing down for sure. First because of the big move out of the "entreprise" software and secondly because of Oracle legal team. It's definitely due to the licensing that Android is switching to Kotlin for example.

PagerDuty, Zoom, Slack —- seems like a great time for enterprise software.

By entreprise software, I mean the traditional heavy Java frameworks & tooling.
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