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College May Not Be Worth It Anymore

nytimes.com

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Re: College May Not Be Worth It Anymore

#321

Post by ghaff »

TAForObvReasons wrote: post #223
eanzenberg wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I fully agree with the US decision. I want my MDs to pass some baseline aptitude set by US regulation and if a governing board decides a country cannot meet that then those doctors need to re-apply.

This applies to technology as well: I want the people writing code that will be deployed in $CRITICAL_SITUATION to pass some baseline aptitude test set by US regulation, ideally with some ethics component. Unfortunately, no such thing exists in software and there's a surprising pushback.

It sort of exists. P.E. Software engineering like most of the other engineering branches use. Signing off on designs that require regulatory approval often requires a PE. In my first job in mechanical design etc. it was understood that I would get this as soon as I could.

However my understanding is that almost no one gets this in software and it’s being discontinued.

Re: College May Not Be Worth It Anymore

#322

Post by learc83 »

blueseaadmin wrote: post #239
learc83 wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The military could be a good choice for some people, but I don't know if I'd call it a great gig. Out of all the 10 or so people I know fairly well who are active duty or former military (Marines, Air Force, and Navy, I don't think I know any Army people unless you count National Guard). 2 have serious PTSD. 1 of those, my neighbor, was just arrested for forging pain med prescriptions--he got hooked after he was seri…

A young women going into the Air Force in a support role is highly unlikely to ever be near the front lines; that is the bailiwick of the Army and Marines. She wants to go into a PR role, so the chances of this are slim. I grew up a military brat, did almost 10 years myself in the Corps. I was in during DS1 and almost no one I know from that "war" has PTSD. I personally know several Marines who sent dozens of people…

>PTSD depends on the mental strength of the individual.

People with PTSD don't have some kind of mental weakness. There's even evidence that many cases of PTSD are the results of undiagnosed brain trauma from IED detonations.

>A young women going into the Air Force

Yeah, for some people it's a good option. It's not a "great gig for kids" though in general--for the hundreds of thousands of people with PTSD and other job related injuries, it wasn't a great gig.

Something can't really simultaneously be described as both requiring tremendous personal sacrifice, and a great gig.

Re: College May Not Be Worth It Anymore

#323

Post by s73v3r_ »

VikingCoder wrote: post #318
s73v3r_ wrote: post #270

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think Liberal Arts programs absolutely should be a prereq for STEM careers. One of the reasons tech is in the state it is, is due to the lack of ethics courses taught.

Sure, make it a huge contributing factor in promotion, moving to project management, etc. But not a pre-req for day one, earning a salary. Hell, let's make some Continuing Education demands on STEM.

Again, I strongly disagree. Make it a requirement before writing a single line of code. The impact this industry has on the world is such that ethics training is a must.

Re: College May Not Be Worth It Anymore

#324

Post by s73v3r_ »

BlackDeath3 wrote: post #302
s73v3r_ wrote: post #258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But, here's the thing: They weren't wrong. The sheer number of people who have had their resumes ignored simply because they don't have a degree of some sort attests to that.

>> ...they even went so far as to say it didn’t even matter what you studied!... > ...They weren't wrong. The sheer number of people who have had their resumes ignored simply because they don't have a degree of some sort attests to that. This doesn't imply that having any degree would have gotten their resumes looked at, or secured them an interview.

The amount of people working as programmers with degrees in non computer science related fields does kind of imply that, though.

Re: College May Not Be Worth It Anymore

#325

Post by Consultant32452 »

freeopinion wrote: post #184
j_gu wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So why then does the US military place people according to the ASVAB?

College degree and ASVAB results are not similar criteria at all. They serve completely different purposes. A college degree shows an ability to complete a specific course of discipline. It does not really even indicate aptitude in the discipline. Just the ability to follow through and complete the requirements. I suppose it shows a minimum level of aptitude in that you didn't give up hope and quit. ASVAB doesn't ind…

ASVAB is an IQ test. Education correlates strongly with IQ. IQ isn't the only thing you get from the type of degree earned and where it's earned from, but it's a big component.

Re: College May Not Be Worth It Anymore

#326

Post by everdev »

Growing up, I was told to go to college if I wanted to earn a good income and provide for a family and it worked out that way for me.

However, when I hire, I never look at education, only work experience. I can't recommend my kids spend $250k or more on college when they could get 4 years of work experience or start a business with a little bit of training.

Re: College May Not Be Worth It Anymore

#327

Post by seem_2211 »

amitmathew wrote: post #304

This is a very poor article. College is, on average, worth it [1]. What the article tries to articulate is that we're not seeing a comparable return on investment for students from lower-income families. This is tied to worse graduation rates. As one example, community college students graduate at abysmal rates [2]. This is actually no big secret to schools. There is a big focus on trying to improve retention rates.…

College is completely worth it^, in that it opens a ton of opportunities that tend to be closed without it. College is more about social signaling and entering into the professional class than it is about learning and scholarship etc.

I'm not a fan of community colleges, in that they substantially increase your likelihood of not graduating, or at best, not graduating on time (only 39% of Community College students graduate in SIX years, which is shocking) [1]. I know it's a broadly popular point on the internet to suggest going to a CC to save money, but the risk factor is never mentioned.

I didn't go to University in America (although I now live in SF). If I were 17 again, and growing up in the US, I'd go to the best college I was able to get into, regardless of the cost.

As an employee, Silicon Valley is sort of a meritocracy, but a degree is the price of admission, unless you're very very good (and even then, you've made it harder to job change). Go through this week's funding announcements on TechCrunch and check where the founders went from, and I'll bet you my last dollar, you'll see a couple from Stanford, a couple from Harvard, and then maybe one or two from somewhere else.

^provided you graduate on time, and take advantage of networking opportunities while you're studying.

[1] http://hechingerreport.org/new-book-addresses-low-community-...

Re: College May Not Be Worth It Anymore

#328

Post by vkou »

H1Supreme wrote: post #240
xkjkls wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is usually getting the first couple opportunities. You don't need a degree if you've been in the industry awhile, but if you're trying to get a prestigious job it gets really easy to be filtered into thrown out stack of resumes.

This is the kicker. Getting your foot in the door is much, much easier with a degree. But, it doesn't mean it's the only way. I got my first programming gig, sans degree, with my portfolio. My boss commented that my website, and descriptions of my projects, is what got me the interview. Coming from graphic design, a portfolio is par for the course. But, I think some programmers will overlook the need for one. And no,…

100% of my work has been internal-facing systems for large companies. Should I compose a portfolio of it? How will a hiring manager be able to differentiate it from a bunch of bullshit?

As an artist, you can almost always point to something, and say: I did this. I designed that. I am credited on a blockbuster film.

As a programmer, you can almost always talk a hot game about how you did something, but you can rarely tie that to proof.

Are you saying that's the hiring manager's problem, not mine?

Re: College May Not Be Worth It Anymore

#329

Post by thatcat »

eanzenberg wrote: post #209
derefr wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I really want my doctor to actually have an MD How do you feel about the fact that doctors from foreign countries need to requalify in the US with a whole ‘nother MD program here? Even if they’re from a country with as-or-more stringent requirements, and decades of experience? “Higher education” is sometimes, in hiring, a dog-whistle for “enculturated to the US because they attended college here.”

I fully agree with the US decision. I want my MDs to pass some baseline aptitude set by US regulation and if a governing board decides a country cannot meet that then those doctors need to re-apply.

Why? US health care is proven to be inferior to that of many European countries.

I suspect the reason that AMA limit access to US markets for foreign trained doctors is because limiting the supply of doctors in the US would likely increase the average salary for current US doctors.

Re: College May Not Be Worth It Anymore

#330

Post by replicatorblog »

bjourne wrote: post #301
GiorgioG wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You need time to ponder, to explore, to be curious. Most of the kids going to college are not mature enough to do any of the above (come on, these are 17 year olds going 30k into debt for their first year alone.) The 'college experience' today is partying / drinking yourself into a stupor and amassing a ton of debt. No, not everyone, but for most that's reality.

> No, not everyone, but for most that's reality. You've been watching to many American Pie movies. College students are insanely focused because they know how tough the competition is. No one has time to party.

At Ivies and other top 20 schools, I'd agree. Maybe even the top 50. Beyond that, I think the American Pie stereotypes are closer to the norm than you might think.
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