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College May Not Be Worth It Anymore

nytimes.com

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Re: College May Not Be Worth It Anymore

#131
post #108
post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even if not all college degrees are worthwhile, it doesn't mean that companies are wrong to want college degrees. In fact, it's probably true that the highest-paid, highest-skill jobs have the most genuine need for college degrees. And for the rest, virtue signaling is a real thing: if you have more applicants than jobs, you set up high filters to winnow the pool.

You seem to be suggesting that the simple addition of a degree requirement is good because it narrows the search field. By this same argument, I could say I will only accept candidates that are left handed.

"By this same argument, I could say I will only accept candidates that are left handed."

If you find that filtering for people who are left-handed improves the average quality of your candidates, then yes.

But of course, a college degree is not even remotely as arbitrary as you're suggesting.

Re: College May Not Be Worth It Anymore

#132

College is probably a great thing for some people, but it's been oversold. It's not the destination, it's just one way of getting there. One reason why it's so easy to sell, is that college is a near universal experience for the middle and upper classes, and being an expensive experience, people credit it with much of the personal growth that happens in one's early 20s. They also credit it with making them good at th…

Haha, that's my experience too. I keep it to myself a bit better these days. Somebody asked me at my last role if I had my masters in comp science; "Hmm, not yet! I've been thinking about it though..."

Sometimes when coworkers find out there is a remark like "Oh wow, I never realized that." Imagine after somebody had brought up their alma mater and I remarked "Oh wow, I never would have realized you went to college.."

Re: College May Not Be Worth It Anymore

#133
post #108
post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even if not all college degrees are worthwhile, it doesn't mean that companies are wrong to want college degrees. In fact, it's probably true that the highest-paid, highest-skill jobs have the most genuine need for college degrees. And for the rest, virtue signaling is a real thing: if you have more applicants than jobs, you set up high filters to winnow the pool.

You seem to be suggesting that the simple addition of a degree requirement is good because it narrows the search field. By this same argument, I could say I will only accept candidates that are left handed.

The assumption is that holding a degree is a proxy for IQ, or work ethic, or some other positive trait. Left-handedness doesn't signal much of anything, beyond perhaps a slightly shorter life expectancy.

Re: College May Not Be Worth It Anymore

#134
post #108
post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even if not all college degrees are worthwhile, it doesn't mean that companies are wrong to want college degrees. In fact, it's probably true that the highest-paid, highest-skill jobs have the most genuine need for college degrees. And for the rest, virtue signaling is a real thing: if you have more applicants than jobs, you set up high filters to winnow the pool.

You seem to be suggesting that the simple addition of a degree requirement is good because it narrows the search field. By this same argument, I could say I will only accept candidates that are left handed.

Does a candidate being left-handed add a significant amount of confidence that he/she is a good candidate?

Re: College May Not Be Worth It Anymore

#135
post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People hate when I talk about working fulltime in the factory on the midnight shift and going to school fulltime. I didnt get 'the college experience'. But I didnt have any college debt, I became a hardened adult that didnt cry when plant people got pissed. I dont complain. If something needs to get done, I do it. Graduated in 3 years with my chem engineering degree at age 21. People will always complain about someth…

Not saying it's true for you, but everyone I knew at college that was working full-time was in my opinion getting far less out of college than they would have. You need time to ponder, to explore, to be curious. Having to grind insane hours just to get in the game might be workable for the very dedicated and tough, but it's certainly not an optimal experience, and something we should strive to make not necessary.

On the other hand, the 4 years I spent working full-time were hands-down the best education I got and directly led to my best job prospects upon graduation, whereas I had peers who finished a 4 year degree and then realized they had no desire to work in their field. Eliminating any cost of college also eliminates any need to ask if what you're studying is actually worthwhile.

Re: College May Not Be Worth It Anymore

#136
College is not worth any more or less than before or after. If you can afford the college and if you want to go to college, college is a great experience. And for another thing, it's a great place for experiencing "pre"-job world. Out of your hometown, there are really various kinds of people from every part of the place. And college is a great place for meeting those people.

Associating with young, ambitious, hard-working people was a really refreshing experience for me. And think about the democracy and the principle of it. There's some amount of truth that more people can think better results. (spare me from the everlasting discussion of populism and totalitarianism) I don't think I learned that much from professors since I didn't go to college that much.. :P But rather, I learned from my peers. And I even learned how to learn from professors from my peers.

Another point: at that age span (of 19 - 23 and upwards), young folks are easy to make mistakes and fall for victims of bad things, be overly confident of their future. Being in a college prevents those unfortunate events from happening to some extent.

And another point: Being young and curious, sometimes you might need to dig deep into your curiosity and study about everything - being in a college means you have lots of free time. So you are in this ivory tower for limited period of time, it's up to you how to use that free (& paid by your parents or you, which means it's not that free at all) time. And since you're still "student", you're immune to many responsibilities also. It's somehow an opportunity for you.

These were the benefits of college in my opinion. Of course, there are lots of cons of college - being too expensive, only delays your chance to be in the real adult world, college has become a school for job market decades ago so why bother, etc.

I think it's one's choice to how to look at this double-edged sword & opportunity that comes once in your lifetime.

Re: College May Not Be Worth It Anymore

#137
post #29
post #8

The issue isn't that college is pointless, it's that tuition is too high and wages too low. You should support politicians with a plan to counter this trend. Education is important. Raising the overall level of education in this country should be a much larger goal that it seems to be.

Agree - I think we should consider a well educated base of voters, workers, and neighbors as critical infrastucture along with roads and internet. I think some decisions lately have highlighted an open hostility towards science, education, and by implication, democracy. This needs to be reversed.

>I think we should consider a well educated base of voters, workers, and neighbors as critical infrastucture (sic) along with roads and internet.

A lot of people are disinclined towards education and education isn't so important that people should be coerced into submitting to it. In fact, educating people against their will usually impairs the learning experience for motivated people in the classroom. The people who interrupt the teacher and misbehave usually do so because they don't want to be there.

Beyond that, a lot of public schools are failing to do their jobs or prioritizing knowledge poorly. A school district near me has rapidly declining test scores but touts a social justice curriculum. I certainly don't want to forbid anyone from learning critiques of colonialism, but I think that's "dessert" and should really only be taught after students have a strong knowledge base in more practical knowledge.

>I think some decisions lately have highlighted an open hostility towards science, education, and by implication, democracy. This needs to be reversed.

To the degree this is true, I primarily blame those who politicize science and education. Look at the "march for science" - the well meaning folks at my local march were too happy to use climate change predictions to demand others make massive concessions. In this, we see the difficulty in using empiricism as a means to support agendas - the climate change models aren't performing well, and even if the predictions were accurate, there should be some discussion about the cost and benefits. America does better than most nations under climate change predictions and the countries that will be the worst impacted as those who play the biggest roles in it: the oil rich middle eastern and African states sure enjoy selling oil but beg for help to deal with the consequences of their customers using the oil they sell. To some degree, the people who don't care about the consequences of climate change aren't hostile to science and they don't want to debate the issue at the level of science which is probably the right way to handle it because the discussion isn't really about the climate, the core issue is the degree to which we should sacrifice for people we don't care about.

Lastly, it sometimes seems like the more schooling one receives, the more hostile they are to science. High school graduates might not like things like racial differences in IQ, but it's my experience that individuals with graduate-level education are more hostile to the same thing. I would hope that the additional schooling would make these people more open to accepting things based on the strength of evidence but that's not the case. It's not clear how we reverse that hostility but the answer doesn't seem to be "more school".

Re: College May Not Be Worth It Anymore

#138
post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agree - I think we should consider a well educated base of voters, workers, and neighbors as critical infrastucture along with roads and internet. I think some decisions lately have highlighted an open hostility towards science, education, and by implication, democracy. This needs to be reversed.

Well educated voters are the enemy of political parties that thrive on soundbites and fear.

If a political party isn't appealing to fear, it will be replaced by one that does.

Re: College May Not Be Worth It Anymore

#139
post #42

Big surprise: people born rich will have more money no matter if they have college degree or not. What the article doesn't say is that all other things being equal it is still worth it to have college education. I don't think that the right way to motivate poor people is to tell them that even with degree they might be worse off than the rich. Having a degree will be better for them than not having it. Learning alway…

[deleted]

Re: College May Not Be Worth It Anymore

#140
post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People hate when I talk about working fulltime in the factory on the midnight shift and going to school fulltime. I didnt get 'the college experience'. But I didnt have any college debt, I became a hardened adult that didnt cry when plant people got pissed. I dont complain. If something needs to get done, I do it. Graduated in 3 years with my chem engineering degree at age 21. People will always complain about someth…

Not saying it's true for you, but everyone I knew at college that was working full-time was in my opinion getting far less out of college than they would have. You need time to ponder, to explore, to be curious. Having to grind insane hours just to get in the game might be workable for the very dedicated and tough, but it's certainly not an optimal experience, and something we should strive to make not necessary.

> You need time to ponder, to explore, to be curious.

Most of the kids going to college are not mature enough to do any of the above (come on, these are 17 year olds going 30k into debt for their first year alone.) The 'college experience' today is partying / drinking yourself into a stupor and amassing a ton of debt. No, not everyone, but for most that's reality.

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