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College May Not Be Worth It Anymore

nytimes.com

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Re: College May Not Be Worth It Anymore

#261

Post by Consultant32452 »

topkai22 wrote: post #180
j_gu wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So why then does the US military place people according to the ASVAB?

The ASVAB is a vocational (subject) test, not an IQ test. I think it does try to measure general intelligence in some sections, but it’s really focused on “can you do this type of job.” When I took it over a decade ago there was basically a “clerking” section which I flunked.

http://asvabmilitarytest.com/asvab-compared-other-iq-tests

>The ASVAB measures cognitive ability like other common IQ test, but it dependent upon the individual’s previous education for successful scores. It removes the individual attention received in common IQ test, but gathers much of the same information.

Re: College May Not Be Worth It Anymore

#262

Post by BlackDeath3 »

oh_sigh wrote: post #202
citilife wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Veterinarian programs specific limit how many students they accept, because if they didn't, their graduates wouldn't be able to afford a living wage. Other majors need to catch on. Medical schools do the same thing, but that's also what's causing a burden on the medical system. I truly blame most of the medical expense increases in the U.S. on them and medicare (which sets a base price and everyone else must make u…

Vets can easily make 100k+ in rural areas where the median wage is in the 20s or 30s. You could double the number of vet grads and vets would still be able to make a comfortable living.

> Vets can easily make 100k+ in rural areas where the median wage is in the 20s or 30s...

Eh... depends on the job. I don't think that most prospective veterinarians dream of working for the USDA ($$$) when they graduate.

Re: College May Not Be Worth It Anymore

#263

Post by Consultant32452 »

Nav_Panel wrote: post #124
Consultant32452 wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Employers are generally looking for a proxy for iq, since testing iq directly has potential legal problems. SAT, ASVAB, grades, degree attainment are often just proxies for iq. I think if Congress passes a law explicitly allowing iq tests for all job applications we'll see many of these seemingly irrational job requirements fade away.

IQ doesn't seem nearly as relevant as conscientiousness and ability to follow directions. College success really acts as a proxy for "I am able to complete assigned tasks under stress." I also imagine the relationship between IQ and productivity isn't exactly linear...

http://www.businessinsider.com/why-your-iq-strongly-influenc...

>A growing body of research suggests general cognitive ability may be the best predictor of job performance.

Of course there are other factors as well, but IQ is one of the biggest factors and it's taboo to even mention it.

Re: College May Not Be Worth It Anymore

#264

Post by s73v3r_ »

the_new_guy_29 wrote: post #27
paulpauper wrote: post #2

The NYTimes republishes a variant of this articles almost every month https://www.google.com/search?q=site:nytimes.com+college+wor... The usual answer is "it depends"

It depends on how you spend that time. Studing hard pays off, slacking off - not. This should be a common knowledge. It more or less boils down to this and not status or race...

"It more or less boils down to this and not status or race..."

This is so far from the truth that it'd be laughable if it wasn't so sad.

Re: College May Not Be Worth It Anymore

#265

Post by Consultant32452 »

passivepinetree wrote: post #116
Consultant32452 wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Employers are generally looking for a proxy for iq, since testing iq directly has potential legal problems. SAT, ASVAB, grades, degree attainment are often just proxies for iq. I think if Congress passes a law explicitly allowing iq tests for all job applications we'll see many of these seemingly irrational job requirements fade away.

This isn't true at all. IQ is much less important than work ethic and attitude at many/most jobs.

http://www.businessinsider.com/why-your-iq-strongly-influenc...

>A growing body of research suggests general cognitive ability may be the best predictor of job performance.

Re: College May Not Be Worth It Anymore

#266

Post by rifung »

awalton wrote: post #200
aarongough wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't have a degree and honestly have never had any issues with recruiters or interviews for intermediate/senior 'software engineering' positions. I never represent myself as having a degree, but I don't go out of my way to point out my lack of degree either. Never once in an interview have I been asked about my education. One nice thing about software development positions is the interview process tends to be meri…

Because, of course, your experiences are universal to all of humanity. My own personal anecdotal evidence is contrary; I had to get a college degree before anyone would give me so much as a callback (and the one time I got more than that, it ended with a pathetic offer - with the justification given that "You don't have a college degree"). All of this despite having years of proven open source contributions.

> All of this despite having years of proven open source contributions.

I wonder how experience in open source maps to professional experience. My impression is that employers seem to value professional experience much more.

I've had a similar experience to you in terms of not having a college degree, but after I worked for a few years employers stopped caring.

Re: College May Not Be Worth It Anymore

#267

Post by s73v3r_ »

VikingCoder wrote: post #114
tejaswiy wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the argument is to not prevent people from getting art history degrees - just to make all art history courses in the US artificially limit the number of students they take in to match the actual demand. So if someone's super passionate about art history and is also able to meet the (presumably) more stringent entry criteria, they will still be able to get that degree.

Or maybe let people pay for Art History degrees if they want to. And the free program should be based on Merit, and career demand.

"And the free program should be based on Merit, and career demand."

Who chooses what defines "Merit"?

Re: College May Not Be Worth It Anymore

#268

Post by andrewvc »

Distribution wrote: post #210
andrewvc wrote: post #36

College is probably a great thing for some people, but it's been oversold. It's not the destination, it's just one way of getting there. One reason why it's so easy to sell, is that college is a near universal experience for the middle and upper classes, and being an expensive experience, people credit it with much of the personal growth that happens in one's early 20s. They also credit it with making them good at th…

I'm sure some can learn just as well on their own as in college, but that is really not the main benefit of it. The main benefit is that the people at your college are self-selecting: they have similar interests as you do, they have similar ambition, they have similar abilities. If this college is a good one, you are going to meet more brilliant, fun, and engaging people in your 4 years than you would in almost any o…

If you go to an Ivy, everything you wrote is incredibly true. Going to any Ivy or other elite (or even semi-elite) school is a HUGE benefit if for no reason other than networking.

As you move down the scale that becomes less and less true. People go, learn whatever they learn, get few if any connections, and wind up with a pile of debt.

So, we've created an incredibly regressive system.

One other thing to note. When people form those friend groups it's not just about who's their intellectual peer, it's also about who came from similar backgrounds etc. It's an engine of division as much as anything else.

I agree that the value is there for some individuals, but I disagree that this is a good thing for society as a whole. If you get accepted to Harvard, it's almost certainly worth your while to go. College still remains a finishing school for the elites in our society. Some people bubble up from the underrepresented portions of our society, but they remain the exception, and will continue to be so until something changes.

I've included a couple links below that explain the disadvantages some groups face when attending college.

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/07/27/blacks-with-... https://www.vox.com/2017/9/11/16270316/college-mobility-cult...

Re: College May Not Be Worth It Anymore

#269

Post by pastor_bob »

chasing wrote: post #8

The issue isn't that college is pointless, it's that tuition is too high and wages too low. You should support politicians with a plan to counter this trend. Education is important. Raising the overall level of education in this country should be a much larger goal that it seems to be.

A degree in Communications or a host of other soft majors is basically worthless. Arguable that 4 years would be better spent elsewhere, not to mention the money that goes into faculty salaries.

A liberal arts degree can be worth it, but only if it is actually a program with effort in it.

Re: College May Not Be Worth It Anymore

#270

Post by s73v3r_ »

VikingCoder wrote: post #91
bluGill wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If somebody is passionate about art history, then they should get a degree in art history regardless of job prospects. You are limiting their ability to get the education they want. Now I will agree that somebody getting an art history type degree shouldn't be taking loans to get it, they should be paying for it out of their pocket. However we should not limit somebody from pursuing their interests just because their…

Fair enough. And I'm just talking out of my ass about my own theories, here. I still welcome conversation to try to inform myself. Roughly, I think we should think in terms of Trade Schools and Liberal Arts programs. I'm a huge fan of Liberal Arts programs, but I don't think they should be a pre-requisite for a STEM career. They also shouldn't be a pre-requisite for many jobs that people have today. We should all be…

I think Liberal Arts programs absolutely should be a prereq for STEM careers. One of the reasons tech is in the state it is, is due to the lack of ethics courses taught.
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