College May Not Be Worth It Anymore • Hacker News Board

Re: College May Not Be Worth It Anymore

#111

Post by e_tm_ » Thu, May 17, 2018, 4:42 PM UTC

chasing wrote: post #8

The issue isn't that college is pointless, it's that tuition is too high and wages too low. You should support politicians with a plan to counter this trend. Education is important. Raising the overall level of education in this country should be a much larger goal that it seems to be.

I agree that 'education' is critically important.

But it is important to clarify: education in what is important.

I think there is massive difficulty in forming any sort of consensus approach to define a proper baseline of 'education' that works for everyone. Our school systems are frankly not designed for it, and it seems a utopian ideal that they may be 'corrected' to do so. Considering the diversity of motivators and systems/tactics used for schooling across cities/counties/states and the content that is covered/ignored, is it realistic to attempt to measure a 'baseline of education'?

To me it comes down to structuring a better formal definition of 'education' at a societal level. Economic utility is the obvious motivator in today's society, which pumps up many fields of 'education', but hinders the perceived importance of other fields. Some forms or fields of education that are not covered in our modern schooling systems may actually improve the education baseline, and vice versa with some content currently covered.

Re: College May Not Be Worth It Anymore

#112

Post by [deleted] » Thu, May 17, 2018, 4:43 PM UTC

mkirklions wrote: post #58

whataretensors wrote: post #51

School is a waste of time and resources for the talented these days. You can learn anything you want online by the best people. It's becoming training for state-run communism. No choice, only negative reward signals, march at the same speed as the average. Of course if we tell people the truth - your outcome can essentially be predicted by measuring IQ, which stabilizes around age 7. SAT score is essentially a makesh…

Failed out of engineering= they didnt care I agree that most education should be learned on the job, but college is a filter to keep the lazy out of jobs that require the dedicated. Engineering was insane because they wanted people that would drop what they are doing to go to mexico with 7 hours notice. The dude that dropped out of engineering school is planning on fishing this weekend, hes not going anywhere his bos…

[deleted]

Re: College May Not Be Worth It Anymore

#113

Post by uptownfunk » Thu, May 17, 2018, 4:43 PM UTC

I think good colleges are worth it, but mediocre/poor colleges aren’t. Good colleges are where you have high caliber instructors, a qualty network, a good reputation, and good counseling/support system.. ie things that will help you professionally. I’d amso factor in location/climate but not something I’d pay for explicitly

Re: College May Not Be Worth It Anymore

#114

Post by VikingCoder » Thu, May 17, 2018, 4:43 PM UTC

tejaswiy wrote: post #96

bluGill wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If somebody is passionate about art history, then they should get a degree in art history regardless of job prospects. You are limiting their ability to get the education they want. Now I will agree that somebody getting an art history type degree shouldn't be taking loans to get it, they should be paying for it out of their pocket. However we should not limit somebody from pursuing their interests just because their…

I think the argument is to not prevent people from getting art history degrees - just to make all art history courses in the US artificially limit the number of students they take in to match the actual demand. So if someone's super passionate about art history and is also able to meet the (presumably) more stringent entry criteria, they will still be able to get that degree.

Or maybe let people pay for Art History degrees if they want to.

And the free program should be based on Merit, and career demand.

Re: College May Not Be Worth It Anymore

#115

Post by Frondo » Thu, May 17, 2018, 4:43 PM UTC

mtberatwork wrote: post #92

mkirklions wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People hate when I talk about working fulltime in the factory on the midnight shift and going to school fulltime. I didnt get 'the college experience'. But I didnt have any college debt, I became a hardened adult that didnt cry when plant people got pissed. I dont complain. If something needs to get done, I do it. Graduated in 3 years with my chem engineering degree at age 21. People will always complain about someth…

The point is that there was a time when you could have worked that factory job during the summer to pay for the next year's tuition. I'm sure you would concede that this is much more reasonable than working a full time job on top of a full time university load.

An ex had a grandfather who put himself through school, including dental school and the extra 3 years for a specialty in orthodontics, working a summer job.

And he complains about his grandkids needing to go into debt. They don't realize how the world's changed in the last 50 years...

Re: College May Not Be Worth It Anymore

#116

Post by passivepinetree » Thu, May 17, 2018, 4:43 PM UTC

Consultant32452 wrote: post #110

awalton wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which is probably a good thing, since it will slowly beat into the minds of upper-levels at corps and recruiters that a College Degree shouldn't be the minimum bar applicants need to reach, and maybe some of these companies will start removing the "has degree" band reject filter.

Employers are generally looking for a proxy for iq, since testing iq directly has potential legal problems. SAT, ASVAB, grades, degree attainment are often just proxies for iq. I think if Congress passes a law explicitly allowing iq tests for all job applications we'll see many of these seemingly irrational job requirements fade away.

This isn't true at all. IQ is much less important than work ethic and attitude at many/most jobs.

Re: College May Not Be Worth It Anymore

#117

Post by DamnYuppie » Thu, May 17, 2018, 4:43 PM UTC

deadmetheny wrote: post #87

anoncoward111 wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

it's already a shame that the answer isn't 100% yes, 100% of the time. back in the 70s, tuition was payable with a summer job and job prospects were decent enough despite geopolitical and economic headwinds these days, the same problems plague the job market, but every year of college costs 1 year of salary, unless you qualify for stackable forms of financial aid

>every year of college costs 1 year of salary This is point-blank wrong, unless you're only talking about elite private schools. Most state schools cost around 1-1.5 years of full-time salary, discounting room and board since you have to pay for somewhere to live independently of if you attend university. If your goal is to simply get a degree, you can do it for less than $50k (which is definitely still off compared…

Your argument is only valid if you are assuming that tuition is paid for out of pocket. If you have to finance that $50k, you will most likely end up paying closer to $80k. The 80k assumes a 15 year repayment at current rates, if they can pay more and get it done in 10 years it drops down to under $70k.

Re: College May Not Be Worth It Anymore

#118

Post by Matticus_Rex » Thu, May 17, 2018, 4:44 PM UTC

We have decent data on this, and college is still worth it (for the individual) for all above-average students. Its social returns (which is some of what she's getting at without the vocabulary for it) are near-zero or negative, however, despite the many tropes about "an educated society" to the contrary.

For a much, much deeper discussion of this issue and the factors involved, read The Case Against Education by Bryan Caplan (https://www.amazon.com/Case-against-Education-System-Waste/d...). It's one of the more careful social science books I've ever read, and while it comes to controversial conclusions, even if you disagree with them you'll learn a lot about the issues by reading it.

Re: College May Not Be Worth It Anymore

#119

Post by vlan0 » Thu, May 17, 2018, 4:44 PM UTC

ericb wrote: post #18

chasing wrote: post #8

The issue isn't that college is pointless, it's that tuition is too high and wages too low. You should support politicians with a plan to counter this trend. Education is important. Raising the overall level of education in this country should be a much larger goal that it seems to be.

> Raising the overall level of education in this country should be a much larger goal that it seems to be. On one level, I totally agree. At the same time, well-meaning attempts to make college loans available to everyone for everything seem to have massively bloated the cost of education to a crippling degree. I think the key is in the how of the approach.

>well-meaning attempts to make college loans available to everyone for everything seem to have massively bloated the cost of education to a crippling degree.

I'm not so sure about this as a cause. If you look at the costs for colleges that have increased over time, you can start to see where a lot of this money is going. Spending on new and maintaining aging technology is increased. And now you have entire departments like Title IX that never existed in prior school models.

And with expansion, additional management overhead now exists. There is seemly at least a Director of for everything.

Re: College May Not Be Worth It Anymore

#120

Post by jknoepfler » Thu, May 17, 2018, 4:44 PM UTC

Half-assing anything usually isn't worth it. Given that most Americans half-ass their educations, why would we expect doubling down on half-assery to pay dividends?

If working hard towards a degree at a decent school stopped paying dividends, that might be news.