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Taiwan ban single-use plastic straws, plastic bags, disposable utensils by 2030

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Re: Taiwan ban single-use plastic straws, plastic bags, disposable utensils by 2030

#211

Post by wastedhours »

monk_e_boy wrote: post #203
wastedhours wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anecdata, but since it was introduced, I've gone from getting a new bag every day (lunch/fresh groceries), to using the same one for pretty much the last 6 months. It was a very noticeable shift to making me think about their use. Buying one because I've forgotten is a rare, and slight annoyance (the price doesn't put me off, it just changes the mental model).

Lots of my friends have said the same thing. I've always wondered why people didn't re-use bags before the charge... Saving the environment didn't matter, but 5p does? People didn't know plastic was bad before? They didn't care? It's great that the 5p charge works, but do we need to have a 5p charge on every bit of plastic to drive the point home?

> do we need to have a 5p charge on every bit of plastic to drive the point home?

I'd argue "Yep". We've shown repeatedly we value convenience over the environment time and time again, I think we need to be pragmatic and, rather than guilt people into making better decisions, guide them to do it through this kind of (albeit fake) positive reinforcement - "save money by just using that thing you have".

Most people buying a loaf of Hovis and some baked beans of an evening give precisely zero sh*tes about the ecological concerns of their decisions. It'd be great if people just decided to be concerned, but I think we need to be realistic about the motivations of people, and their priorities.

Re: Taiwan ban single-use plastic straws, plastic bags, disposable utensils by 2030

#212

Post by bambax »

antognini wrote: post #129
makecheck wrote: post #115

Drinks taste better without straws anyway, and you can be satisfied with a lot less by sipping directly. I was amazed how easily I could gulp down some 32 oz. drink with a straw but when opening the lid and sipping I could be perfectly happy with a tiny coffee-cup size.

I don't like straws myself, but they are better for your teeth since most beverages are acidic and the straw allows the liquid to bypass your teeth.

Water isn't acidic, and is much better for your health than literally any other liquid.

Re: Taiwan ban single-use plastic straws, plastic bags, disposable utensils by 2030

#213

Post by kodablah »

monk_e_boy wrote: post #203
wastedhours wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anecdata, but since it was introduced, I've gone from getting a new bag every day (lunch/fresh groceries), to using the same one for pretty much the last 6 months. It was a very noticeable shift to making me think about their use. Buying one because I've forgotten is a rare, and slight annoyance (the price doesn't put me off, it just changes the mental model).

Lots of my friends have said the same thing. I've always wondered why people didn't re-use bags before the charge... Saving the environment didn't matter, but 5p does? People didn't know plastic was bad before? They didn't care? It's great that the 5p charge works, but do we need to have a 5p charge on every bit of plastic to drive the point home?

> It's great that the 5p charge works, but do we need to have a 5p charge on every bit of plastic to drive the point home?

Nope, and it's a slippery slope and this kind of tax becomes regressive. It's because it works that it's used so often. Same with cigarettes and the like. Next will be soft drinks, fast food, etc, etc. Many who support these kinds of government punishments don't realize how much they associate themselves with prohibitionists and moral majority members they may criticize in other areas.

Re: Taiwan ban single-use plastic straws, plastic bags, disposable utensils by 2030

#214

Post by fvdessen »

always_good wrote: post #166
wnissen wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right, but most of them are getting landfilled at the worst, right? As I understand it, the majority of the garbage is coming from countries that have no commercial-scale waste disposal except ocean dumping.

Well, if we're guessing, surely developed nations produce an order of magnitude more waste in general. Just like the average American consumers more energy than everyone else.

We don't have to guess, according to this source, 98% of marine litter comes from outside Europe & US [1].

[1] https://www.marinelitterthefacts.com/sources

Re: Taiwan ban single-use plastic straws, plastic bags, disposable utensils by 2030

#215

Post by monk_e_boy »

monksy wrote: post #183
desireco42 wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Suddenly this 7 cents are the biggest expense and everyone remembers to bring their bag, which is awesome because effects are great.

I really don't want to give the city more money. They've already upped income tax, property tax (property values have been going up as well), and they played with the sales tax.

How do you stop people using plastic once then throwing it away?

Ask them. TAX them. Make it illegal. $100 deposit. Don't worry about it.

Re: Taiwan ban single-use plastic straws, plastic bags, disposable utensils by 2030

#216

Post by monk_e_boy »

sdfasdasfsf wrote: post #174
ekianjo wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why not bring your own (non-plastic) bag though?

... we forget. Glad to know you're helping bring down the average though

Do they sell cloth bags in the shops?

If shops stopped selling plastic bags people would figure out a solution.

Re: Taiwan ban single-use plastic straws, plastic bags, disposable utensils by 2030

#217

Post by dalbasal »

hnrodey wrote: post #179
dalbasal wrote: post #142

You got to be at least a little cynical about 2030 date for something like this. Why not 2020. This isn't electric cars. We don't need to think about cost curves or 10 year product cycles.

There is a business and people impact to these types of decisions. Reducing usage of anything means one or more businesses will cease to operate and people will lose income. The government needs to afford these industries an opportunity to adjust to the new regulations.

sure, presumably there are some people that only make or deliver plastic spoons. But, they aren't many.

Businesses will need to change practices. Supporting industries (regular cutlery, dishwashers) need to adapt a little. There might be a little pain or cost. Highly optimized workflows (eg McDonald's) a little more.

Generally, this is not that disruptive. Industry could adapt in 6 months, 18 months comfortably. Anything over two years is pointless.

No businesses will even think about this until 2028. Why bother with a tiny change 12 years from now. It may not even come to pass.

Generally, I don't like long lead time for democratic considerations. It makes accountability worse, and encourages political shenanigans. Decision makers should be there when their decisions take effect.

Re: Taiwan ban single-use plastic straws, plastic bags, disposable utensils by 2030

#218

Post by yongjik »

kodablah wrote: post #207
AlwaysRock wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Chicago started charging 7 cent a bag and that certainly made me think twice about my bag use.

Imagine if they threw you in jail for it. I bet you'd think even harder and we'd definitely get rid of plastic bags.

If this is the best argument you can think of against 7-cent plastic bags, you might as well admit defeat and say that they are the greatest things since sliced bread, because that sounds about the same to me.

Re: Taiwan ban single-use plastic straws, plastic bags, disposable utensils by 2030

#220

Post by JoeAltmaier »

danans wrote: post #198
JoeAltmaier wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed they have to be reined in. But on the recycling side, they are spectacularly inefficient. They are bulky to recycle - they never lay down flat again. The entire semi trailer load at my recycle center probably weighs a couple hundred pounds of plastic, mostly air. They are very, very cheap to make and lots of trouble to recycle - its arguable the recycle cost is greater than the environmental cost of a new one.

>But on the recycling side, they are spectacularly inefficient All the more reason to ban them outright isn't it?

Good thought. But the ecological (read: CO2) impact of paper bags and even cloth ones, are they clearly superior? I doubt it. Its just so dang cheap to make a WalMart bag.

I see 'ban the bag!' as eco-theatre.

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