Greeks are abandoning cigarettes in record numbers • Hacker News Board

Re: Greeks are abandoning cigarettes in record numbers

#121

Post by cgag » Sun, Jan 21, 2018, 1:58 AM UTC

ckarmann wrote: post #103

cgag wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Feels good, relieves stress, is social, is an excuse to step outside, and also with the social aspect there's a selection effect for a certain type of person. Also someone mentioned the antipsychotic treatment, irrelevant to most but pretty interesting: http://slatestarcodex.com/2016/01/11/schizophrenia-no-smokin... edit: good list of nootropic-style benefits of nicotine from gwern ( https://www.gwern.net/Nicotine )…

Yes, nicotine at low dose has a stimulant effect who explains most of that. But its tolerance builds up very quickly and most habitual smokers don't really feel this effect anymore and have to smoke more. At high dosage its effect turns from stimulant to sedative and reduce neuronal activity. On the anecdata side, I have a few smoker friends who explained to me they only really feel the first cigarette in the morning…

Like what? Cigarettes may have lots of side effects but nicotine seems very mild in terms of side effects. Like caffeine level. Even the addictiveness seems to be heavily influenced by the other ingredients in tobacco/cigarettes.

Re: Greeks are abandoning cigarettes in record numbers

#122

Post by zerostar07 » Sun, Jan 21, 2018, 2:03 AM UTC

gumby wrote: post #115

All the graffiti in the photo accompanying the article is in the Latin alphabet. What gives?

Most of the calligraphic/artistic graffiti is in english. Only plain writing and some football team names are written in greek.

Re: Greeks are abandoning cigarettes in record numbers

#123

Post by zerostar07 » Sun, Jan 21, 2018, 2:05 AM UTC

thatcat wrote: post #81

matte_black wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Like what? I also see nothing positive about cigarettes.

Nicotine can act as an antidepressant/antipsychotic; cigarettes are a cheap, widely available form that requires no additional equiptment except a lighter.

wouldnt a pill or a sticker be much simpler?

Re: Greeks are abandoning cigarettes in record numbers

#124

Post by [deleted] » Sun, Jan 21, 2018, 2:09 AM UTC

trevyn wrote: post #70

Hasz wrote: post #37

I have an intense personal dislike of smoking. If more people are really moving off them, all the better. From the intrusion on others (second hand smoke) to the cancer, to the litter, there is absolutely nothing positive about cigarettes. I'm no fan of vaping, but as an intermediate step to the elimination of smoking, it is a necessary evil. I would be very happy if cigarettes vanished from the world.

> there is absolutely nothing positive about cigarettes. This is a silly statement. People smoke for many legitimate reasons beyond having an active addiction.

[deleted]

Re: Greeks are abandoning cigarettes in record numbers

#125

Post by girvo » Sun, Jan 21, 2018, 2:18 AM UTC

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #71

WalterBright wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's all a matter of how high the taxes are. The higher they are, the more profit there is in smuggling.

Australia is pretty high, in Sydney they go for more than $25 a pack. Still, smuggling would require long boats rides and stuff, while Australia is a pretty rule of law place.

Yeah. If you’re going to take the huge risk of importing something illegal here, it might as well be cocaine or heroin et al. That way you make a decent profit for your risk at least.

Re: Greeks are abandoning cigarettes in record numbers

#126

Post by girvo » Sun, Jan 21, 2018, 2:28 AM UTC

perseusprime11 wrote: post #114

mabbo wrote: post #4

The only measure that has ever been shown to work to reduce smoking is to make smoking less affordable. Tax cigarettes and people smoke less. Tax them highly and kids sure can't afford them. It's more politically easy to put money into paying celebrities to beg kids not to smoke, but it's not actually effective. It's just theater so politicians can say they tried. Here, Greece is seeing the affordability fall just be…

Still cant understand why we cant simply ban them.

Because that has worked for every other addictive (or not) drug.

Re: Greeks are abandoning cigarettes in record numbers

#127

Post by girvo » Sun, Jan 21, 2018, 2:42 AM UTC

Hasz wrote: post #117

yesenadam wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, I don't think that's clarifying so much as saying something different. So you don't include pleasure in your list of positive things? That's..odd. "Apart from it feeling good, there's nothing good about experience X" can probably be applied to most things in life. Sex. Music. Art. Ice cream. etc. The question is, why would you want to exclude pleasure? "What I enjoy and what you enjoy are probably different set…

I don't include pleasure in my list of objective positive things. "What I enjoy and what you enjoy are probably different sets." is relevant insofar as pleasure is subjective, which is the opposite of objective. When I wrote the original comment, I was not specific enough too include objective, which I should have. Didn't downvote you by the way.

How is pleasure not objective? Frankly, if you’re saying that because 100% of people don’t experience the same pleasure from an activity, then it can’t be objective, then your definition of objectivity is kind of useless for discussion.

People smoke because it makes you feel good temporarily. This is a known effect that is experienced by a large majority. That’s not subjective any more than a release of endorphins during sex is subjective.

Re: Greeks are abandoning cigarettes in record numbers

#128

Post by jackvalentine » Sun, Jan 21, 2018, 2:48 AM UTC

oAlbe wrote: post #74

Gustomaximus wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many countries now have rules where the packets of cigarette show people suffering serious health concerns. This is also said to work well. I'm also sure no smoking indoors or on public streets laws works to reduce smoking well too.

It doesn't. A packet cover (yes, they make cigarette packets covers) costs 2 Euros, and smokers don't seem to be concerned about the disgusting images they put on the packets. With all the added benefits that everybody at the table with a smoker gets to enjoy the view of a gangrenous foot with a missing finger or a black lung destroyed by tar and nicotine whenever the smoker pulls out the packet and places it on the…

It does.

The plain packaging with disgusting imagery as used in Australia has been shown to be effective in reducing youth smoking. The less people try smoking when young, the less continue smoking when older.

The tobacco industry's own studies show that their branding is an important part of getting people to start smoking initially.

Re: Greeks are abandoning cigarettes in record numbers

#129

Post by yorby » Sun, Jan 21, 2018, 3:38 AM UTC

mabbo wrote: post #4

The only measure that has ever been shown to work to reduce smoking is to make smoking less affordable. Tax cigarettes and people smoke less. Tax them highly and kids sure can't afford them. It's more politically easy to put money into paying celebrities to beg kids not to smoke, but it's not actually effective. It's just theater so politicians can say they tried. Here, Greece is seeing the affordability fall just be…

If you raise the price too much, the black market takes over though...

Re: Greeks are abandoning cigarettes in record numbers

#130

Post by yesenadam » Sun, Jan 21, 2018, 4:31 AM UTC

Hasz wrote: post #117

yesenadam wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, I don't think that's clarifying so much as saying something different. So you don't include pleasure in your list of positive things? That's..odd. "Apart from it feeling good, there's nothing good about experience X" can probably be applied to most things in life. Sex. Music. Art. Ice cream. etc. The question is, why would you want to exclude pleasure? "What I enjoy and what you enjoy are probably different set…

I don't include pleasure in my list of objective positive things. "What I enjoy and what you enjoy are probably different sets." is relevant insofar as pleasure is subjective, which is the opposite of objective. When I wrote the original comment, I was not specific enough too include objective, which I should have. Didn't downvote you by the way.

Ok thanks. :-)

Probably no-one has ever thought that everyone enjoys exactly the same things. It's like if you're arguing with someone and the other person says "2+2=4" apparently to support their argument, it would just make you wonder what their argument is, that they bring in 2+2=4 as supporting evidence. It's still puzzling why bring that in, but it seems you have an unusual idea of subjective/objective, as the other commenter has pointed out. But I don't think that's the main issue here..

Trying to understand how people can say "there's nothing good/positive about smoking" :

It seems that - as very often happens in philosophy - there is an equivocation[0].

In one sense, the statement is false (the one I hear, and the guy who said it's a silly thing to say):

There's absolutely nothing positive about smoking (including the smoker's pleasure)

and the other is true but trivial (the one you said you meant when you clarified) :

There's absolutely nothing positive about smoking (not including the smoker's pleasure)

- apart from the smoker's enjoyment, there's nothing good about smoking. But (like ice cream) what are these other good things supposed to be? They are done for enjoyment.

You (and Crockford in that video) say it like it's a hard-hitting substantive thing to say, bemused at how it's not generally admitted. I think it seems so because of this equivocation.

[0] "an informal fallacy resulting from the use of a particular word/expression in multiple senses throughout an argument leading to a false conclusion" - wikip.