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The radical idea of a world without jobs

theguardian.com

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Re: The radical idea of a world without jobs

#111

Post by Helmet »

JulianMorrison wrote: post #85
Helmet wrote: post #23

Am I the only one who likes work? And I don’t mean my job, just work in general.

No, everyone likes work. We call it "hobbies" when its not formally productive and "vocations" when it is. Capitalism, as a system, is awful at allocating this work that people love to the people who love it. They either can't at all, or they are forced to fit it around wasted time, or they have to gamble on trying to build it up from nothing, and often losing their stake and their beloved work.

If everyone did what they wanted to do all of the time, the world would simply cease to function.

Re: The radical idea of a world without jobs

#112

Post by simonsarris »

Helmet wrote: post #23

Am I the only one who likes work? And I don’t mean my job, just work in general.

In front of virtue the immortal gods have put sweat.

…And it is by working that a man becomes more philos than other men to the immortals and to mortals. They all hate the idle.

— Hesiod, Works and Days, 600 BC

Re: The radical idea of a world without jobs

#113

Post by Helmet »

Clubber wrote: post #60
Helmet wrote: post #23

Am I the only one who likes work? And I don’t mean my job, just work in general.

I love work. I love building things. I just don't love the constraints of doing for most other people, particularly if they love power and politics.

Yeah, I agree with you there, but it seems to me that power and politics are a fact of life, like the air that we breathe or food that we eat. Maybe we can clean up the air or cook nicer things, but they will always be there.

Re: The radical idea of a world without jobs

#114

Post by gaius »

TuringTest wrote: post #106
gaius wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because many things that are pleasurable or satisfying to do for yourself are not so much when you scale them. That’s why people get paid to do them now.

That's a reason for ''some'' services not being done, not all services not being done.

Sure, I’ll grant that, but what of jobs that aren’t automatable, but are essential? If this is a serious proposition then we can’t handwave it away.

Re: The radical idea of a world without jobs

#115

Post by Simon_says »

pbhjpbhj wrote: post #52
mseebach wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It already it. Most people middle class and up work way more than they strictly need to for simple wellbeing. It's just that our standards and expectation for wellbeing shifts, and shifts quickly.

I'd say "are in the workplace way more" ... >"Now, the workday is ripe for another disruption. Research suggests that in an eight-hour day, the average worker is only productive for two hours and 53 minutes." https://www.inc.com/melanie-curtin/in-an-8-hour-day-the-aver... // Other studies show the most productive workers take long breaks (~25% of working time).

I feel that's more a symptom of people doing work they loathe. When there's intrinsic motivation for doing work, people are productive for the overwhelming majority of the time spent working, and breaks magically evaporate.

Re: The radical idea of a world without jobs

#116

Post by ComputerGuru »

ojbrien wrote: post #75
nickthemagicman wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you know that 8 people in the world have as much wealth as 3.6 BILLION people. That inequality is STAGGERING. Where do you think the problem lies?

I find the use of this statistic really frustrating, if you're say an average westerner with $10,000 of debt and $2,000 savings - your net wealth is -$8,000. If on the other hand you sift through garbage somewhere in Africa and earn 50c per day your net wealth is ~$0. By this metric the garbage site worker is wealthier than the Westerner fresh from university.

Perhaps the first derivative of net wealth is a better metric?

Re: The radical idea of a world without jobs

#117

Post by nestorherre »

time_invarient wrote: post #15

I’m stuck in a dead end job right now. I will never be granted a shred of decision making capacity or autonomy. It is a waiting game. Waiting for more assignments. Waiting until 5PM. Waiting for my paycheck. Waiting to get fired. Waiting to retire. Waiting to die. ( n * (Commute. Sit. Wait. Commute. Eat. Sleep.)) Die. Where n == the days I have left in this world. The things I work on feel like absurd, meaningless bo…

You always have a choice. It's up to you if stay in the same place or if you accept your "fate" (which isn't fixed) and just complain and cry about it.

I suggest reading "Man's search for meaning".

Re: The radical idea of a world without jobs

#118

Post by barrkel »

ojbrien wrote: post #75
nickthemagicman wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you know that 8 people in the world have as much wealth as 3.6 BILLION people. That inequality is STAGGERING. Where do you think the problem lies?

I find the use of this statistic really frustrating, if you're say an average westerner with $10,000 of debt and $2,000 savings - your net wealth is -$8,000. If on the other hand you sift through garbage somewhere in Africa and earn 50c per day your net wealth is ~$0. By this metric the garbage site worker is wealthier than the Westerner fresh from university.

Sure; it's not counting human capital, or basically the net present value of future income streams available to someone.

In this respect, having debt is a positive sign, because banks evaluate loans based on expected ability to repay, i.e. future income streams.

Re: The radical idea of a world without jobs

#119

Post by xj9 »

gkya wrote: post #78
aaron-lebo wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What makes you stuck? You sound like you've accepted your fate. If you want to change things, just do it. If your reality is so bad that you want to die, then how is taking action to potentially change things worse? A big part of this discussion is people want meaningful work and a meaningful life, but they want other people to give it to them. Why is that expected?

> If you want to change things, just do it. If only that was as easy as saying it. People have responsibilites and stomachs that don't like (naturally) staying empty. Sometimes you just can't do it.

easy

who said easy? change is difficult. life is hard and then you die, so you might as well go down fighting.

Re: The radical idea of a world without jobs

#120

Post by Simon_says »

zaptheimpaler wrote: post #42
mseebach wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He, and Keynes' prediction of 15 hour work weeks, were largely right. We spend quite few hours in the week doing the work we need for basic shelter, food and security, at least to a 1845/1930 standard. You could theoretically live in a simple house in a non-congested corner of countryside and feed a small family simple food on perhaps a days average wages a week (there are some logistics around actually getting someo…

Not really - you can't choose to work 15 hour weeks at most places, even if that is all the money you need. I know if I could CHOOSE to work 20hrs/week and get paid half the salary I definitely would, but that's not an option for 99% of us. I prioritize time over luxuries, but employers still dictate the terms.

You can't choose 15 hour work weeks over a 45 year career, but you can choose to work 45 hour weeks over a 15 year career and retire. It's doable, but it helps if you adopt a 1950s-esque lifestyle and standard of living.
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