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The radical idea of a world without jobs

theguardian.com

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Re: The radical idea of a world without jobs

#41

Post by Allvitende »

Helmet wrote: post #23

Am I the only one who likes work? And I don’t mean my job, just work in general.

No. Work is a hobby for me. I enjoy the process of working, progressing, doing something. I don't really have any other hobbies that I wish I could be doing all day. We have to have something to wake up and do everyday, otherwise life is very boring and just a waiting game until the end of our days.

If people don't enjoy their work, their mission should be to keep looking until they find something that suits them. It's worth the effort finding something that you enjoy doing everyday.

Re: The radical idea of a world without jobs

#42

Post by zaptheimpaler »

mseebach wrote: post #18
gaius wrote: post #2

In 1845, Karl Marx wrote that in a communist society workers would be freed from the monotony of a single draining job to “hunt in the morning, fish in the afternoon, rear cattle in the evening, criticise after dinner” Starve in the morning, starve in the afternoon, starve in the evening, self-criticise instead of dinner. FTFY.

He, and Keynes' prediction of 15 hour work weeks, were largely right. We spend quite few hours in the week doing the work we need for basic shelter, food and security, at least to a 1845/1930 standard. You could theoretically live in a simple house in a non-congested corner of countryside and feed a small family simple food on perhaps a days average wages a week (there are some logistics around actually getting someo…

Not really - you can't choose to work 15 hour weeks at most places, even if that is all the money you need. I know if I could CHOOSE to work 20hrs/week and get paid half the salary I definitely would, but that's not an option for 99% of us. I prioritize time over luxuries, but employers still dictate the terms.

Re: The radical idea of a world without jobs

#43

Post by branchless »

ransom1538 wrote: post #25
time_invarient wrote: post #15

I’m stuck in a dead end job right now. I will never be granted a shred of decision making capacity or autonomy. It is a waiting game. Waiting for more assignments. Waiting until 5PM. Waiting for my paycheck. Waiting to get fired. Waiting to retire. Waiting to die. ( n * (Commute. Sit. Wait. Commute. Eat. Sleep.)) Die. Where n == the days I have left in this world. The things I work on feel like absurd, meaningless bo…

Free time will turn to violence. I don't see a system of robots doing the work --- since it will be destroyed by the masses of media controlled unemployed workers. In the middle ages religion was used to tame the masses -- robots will need something similar.

Normal people are horrible! Back in my tech glass tower to write a tracker to target advertising for loans, away from this filth.

Re: The radical idea of a world without jobs

#44

Post by Radim »

aalleavitch wrote: post #20
fergie wrote: post #11

"Work is badly distributed. People have too much, or too little, or both in the same month. And away from our unpredictable, all-consuming workplaces, vital human activities are increasingly neglected. Workers lack the time or energy to raise children attentively, or to look after elderly relations. “The crisis of work is also a crisis of home,” ... This neglect will only get worse as the population grows and ages."…

Our success at combating strict gender roles that kept women out of the workplace hasn't been matched with a social embrace of stay-at-home dads or other family members who don't work in order to focus on helping care for their loved ones. Unfortunately, instead we've ended up with a society where everyone is just expected to work all the time. There needs to be less stigma against people without jobs. We need to sto…

Do you mean to say "for a short-term, monetary profit"?

Because there are other types of profit, more subjective ones, like feeling good, emotional well-being, long-term sustainability etc, which are more elusive by definition but nevertheless super important.

Because if you're really talking about a lack "profit" in the very general (aka inviting a straight loss), then the question simply becomes: Who will pay for this loss, and why?

Re: The radical idea of a world without jobs

#45

Post by jaldhar »

This glorious utopia will last for all of five minutes until the last surviving SJW decides robots need rights.

And honestly, would xir be wrong? If we ever get to the point where robots can fully take over most human jobs even intellectual ones, we will have had to reach a level of artificial intelligence where even many not so radical religions and philosophies will wonder whether we are exploiting them.

When Tesla delved and Google span, who was then the gentleman?

Re: The radical idea of a world without jobs

#46

Post by CJefferson »

Helmet wrote: post #23

Am I the only one who likes work? And I don’t mean my job, just work in general.

If you like work in general, then either you are very easily entertained, or you have never had a truly boring job.

Have you ever worked on a factory line for 40 hours a week on minimum wage, doing something only slightly too complicated for a machine?

Re: The radical idea of a world without jobs

#47

Post by clarry »

swalsh wrote: post #26
fergie wrote: post #11

"Work is badly distributed. People have too much, or too little, or both in the same month. And away from our unpredictable, all-consuming workplaces, vital human activities are increasingly neglected. Workers lack the time or energy to raise children attentively, or to look after elderly relations. “The crisis of work is also a crisis of home,” ... This neglect will only get worse as the population grows and ages."…

These conversations I feel always seem shallow to me. Automation is definitely helping to free us from a lot of work.. but the world we live in today feels like a preview of what an automated world feels like. In reality, our material lifestyle is still supported by a very large number of people working away in countries most Americans can't find on a map for extremely low wages. If we're going to talk about "reorgan…

> Automation is definitely helping to free us from a lot of work.. but the world we live in today feels like a preview of what an automated world feels like. In reality, our material lifestyle is still supported by a very large number of people working away in countries most Americans can't find on a map for extremely low wages.

I don't know about you but the homes, roads, cars, plumbing, healthcare, energy, food, and most other things vital to our lifestyle do not come from China or Taiwan. And even where Asian products are popular (e.g. big home appliances), European alternatives do exist.

I feel like people in the tech sphere can't look or see beyond smartphones, laptops, and other tech gadgets.

Re: The radical idea of a world without jobs

#48

Post by aalleavitch »

Helmet wrote: post #23

Am I the only one who likes work? And I don’t mean my job, just work in general.

I like to work. If I had a choice, I would be using my skills for something more directly beneficial to mankind than what I do now. Unfortunately, that just doesn't pay as well, and I have student loans and other financial obligations to worry about.

Re: The radical idea of a world without jobs

#50

Post by gumby »

It is interesting that the article’s discussion of the history of work begins with Marx, as the modern conception of work lies in the industrial revolution, of which he was a crucial byproduct. His entire Weltanschauung presumed that organized work was the default activity of humans, and with that as a given, proceeded from there. Modern economics, including neoliberal economics, uses his vocabulary by default, making discussions of alternatives, in a weirdly Whorfian way, hard to have.

This article also correctly places the roots of the conception of work as the core of human identity as side effects of Europe’s Protestant movement. Amazingly, given that this is the Guardian, they failed to invoke the lazy trope of “colonialism” for the spread of this culture worldwide — for in this case it is accurate. The British empire, in particular, once it became run by the government, spread this model to the “lazy natives” as part of a cultural package. (It is no coincidence that the standard worldwide business attire — as with military uniforms — is based on 19th century British aristocratic fashion).

The final piece of course is the cultural reform required for UBI. Just as our conception of work is modern, our conception of money as a reserve of wealth is modern. Even back when Augustus personally paid off he national debt, the conceptions of money and power were backwards to where they are today (“Plutocrat” is another Industrial Age idea). Money was a way to show off your power, not a way to acquire it.

But money also serves a more much more important function as a signalling mechanism (a change in price indicates that there is more demand for T-shirts and less for TV sets) — one of the many fatal flaws in communism was a failure to understand this, and the current obsession with banking in the western economies demonstrates a related misunderstanding. When we have a robotic economy with a marginal cost of production close to zero, why should “wealth” reflect a bank balance? What would be the point of accumulating one?

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