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The radical idea of a world without jobs

theguardian.com

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Re: The radical idea of a world without jobs

#21

Post by SturgeonsLaw »

encrystation wrote: post #12
fredley wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even if we do build fully-automated and autonomous means to grow/build/create everything we need, identity in this era is still overwhelmingly rooted in our jobs. I am a Developer, she is a farmer, he is a doctor. If all the jobs go to robots, what are we? Ask any jobless person for whom no job exists how they feel about life.

In Ada Palmer's Terra Ignota series, set in the 2400's, most people work 20 hour weeks with the rest of their time spent on hobbies. A minority of people, whose jobs are their passions, work significantly more than 20 hours, this is termed Voking (as in, to be a vocateur) and is considered kinda unusual. Reading between the lines, I think full automation is entirely possible in the setting but the world naturally set…

I'd also like to plug Iain M Banks' Culture series as an example of post-scarcity living. There is no shortage of ways to spend one's time or define one's identity without it being coupled to income generation.

Re: The radical idea of a world without jobs

#22

Post by zimzim »

time_invarient wrote: post #15

I’m stuck in a dead end job right now. I will never be granted a shred of decision making capacity or autonomy. It is a waiting game. Waiting for more assignments. Waiting until 5PM. Waiting for my paycheck. Waiting to get fired. Waiting to retire. Waiting to die. ( n * (Commute. Sit. Wait. Commute. Eat. Sleep.)) Die. Where n == the days I have left in this world. The things I work on feel like absurd, meaningless bo…

what do you mean stuck? what do you do after 5 that is so meaningless?

Re: The radical idea of a world without jobs

#24

Post by pbhjpbhj »

fredley wrote: post #3
gaius wrote: post #2

In 1845, Karl Marx wrote that in a communist society workers would be freed from the monotony of a single draining job to “hunt in the morning, fish in the afternoon, rear cattle in the evening, criticise after dinner” Starve in the morning, starve in the afternoon, starve in the evening, self-criticise instead of dinner. FTFY.

Even if we do build fully-automated and autonomous means to grow/build/create everything we need, identity in this era is still overwhelmingly rooted in our jobs. I am a Developer, she is a farmer, he is a doctor. If all the jobs go to robots, what are we? Ask any jobless person for whom no job exists how they feel about life.

Jobless people, eg retirees, who have their needs met but choose to "work" seem often happy. My father was a teacher, his pension is sufficient, he spends his days working with a teaching union.

A friend who was a construction engineer builds extensions and does building work for relatives.

My mother when she was able lent her extensive knowledge of countryside planning to the local council, helped on patients fora for hospitals, cared for more elderly members of the community.

They all do "jobs" that can be paid for, none of them needed to financially. They all seem content in their roles.

Being penniless and being jobless are different things. Moreover, not all people choose to find identity in the jobs they do for survival.

Re: The radical idea of a world without jobs

#25

Post by ransom1538 »

time_invarient wrote: post #15

I’m stuck in a dead end job right now. I will never be granted a shred of decision making capacity or autonomy. It is a waiting game. Waiting for more assignments. Waiting until 5PM. Waiting for my paycheck. Waiting to get fired. Waiting to retire. Waiting to die. ( n * (Commute. Sit. Wait. Commute. Eat. Sleep.)) Die. Where n == the days I have left in this world. The things I work on feel like absurd, meaningless bo…

Free time will turn to violence. I don't see a system of robots doing the work --- since it will be destroyed by the masses of media controlled unemployed workers. In the middle ages religion was used to tame the masses -- robots will need something similar.

Re: The radical idea of a world without jobs

#26

Post by swalsh »

fergie wrote: post #11

"Work is badly distributed. People have too much, or too little, or both in the same month. And away from our unpredictable, all-consuming workplaces, vital human activities are increasingly neglected. Workers lack the time or energy to raise children attentively, or to look after elderly relations. “The crisis of work is also a crisis of home,” ... This neglect will only get worse as the population grows and ages."…

These conversations I feel always seem shallow to me. Automation is definitely helping to free us from a lot of work.. but the world we live in today feels like a preview of what an automated world feels like. In reality, our material lifestyle is still supported by a very large number of people working away in countries most Americans can't find on a map for extremely low wages.

If we're going to talk about "reorganizing society", it should factor in EVERY person in the world. Not just the lucky 10% in first world countries.

Re: The radical idea of a world without jobs

#27

Post by mseebach »

sirmoveon wrote: post #19

The world will never be without jobs; work will just become detached from financial productivity and wellbeing

It already it. Most people middle class and up work way more than they strictly need to for simple wellbeing. It's just that our standards and expectation for wellbeing shifts, and shifts quickly.

Re: The radical idea of a world without jobs

#28

Post by crdoconnor »

>And finally, beyond all these dysfunctions, loom the most-discussed, most existential threats to work as we know it: automation, and the state of the environment. Some recent estimates suggest that between a third and a half of all jobs could be taken over by artificial intelligence in the next two decades.

I've yet to read any research without crippling flaws that suggests this kind of prediction isn't rooted in fantasy.

To take one example, look at https://www.oxfordmartin.ox.ac.uk/downloads/academic/The_Fut... section on call centers and imagine that Comcast applies ML to the next call you make with them. How well would that work?

Re: The radical idea of a world without jobs

#29

Post by zimzim »

amelius wrote: post #17

I want a world where it is more clear what we should work on. Most startups come up with solutions looking for a problem. Yet if people or companies formulated their problems more directly, we wouldn't have to guess at them. As a consequence, work would be more meaningful and more effective.

I think its clear, in our world, you should work on what earns you the most.

Re: The radical idea of a world without jobs

#30

Post by ThePadawan »

zimzim wrote: post #22
time_invarient wrote: post #15

I’m stuck in a dead end job right now. I will never be granted a shred of decision making capacity or autonomy. It is a waiting game. Waiting for more assignments. Waiting until 5PM. Waiting for my paycheck. Waiting to get fired. Waiting to retire. Waiting to die. ( n * (Commute. Sit. Wait. Commute. Eat. Sleep.)) Die. Where n == the days I have left in this world. The things I work on feel like absurd, meaningless bo…

what do you mean stuck? what do you do after 5 that is so meaningless?

not OP, but can relate:

The less meaningful work I get done during the day, the less energy I have after 5. Most days, I'll make quick dinner, turn on YouTube, watch videos for 10 minutes, and suddenly it's 11pm.

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